The Path to Restoring Trust in a Connected World

Intro: 00:01

Welcome to the She Said Privacy/He Said Security podcast. Like any good marriage, we will debate, evaluate and sometimes quarrel about how privacy and security impact business in the 21st century.

Jodi Daniels: 00:21

Hi, Jodi Daniels here. I’m the founder and CEO of Red Clover Advisors, a certified women’s privacy consultancy. I’m a privacy consultant and certified information privacy professional providing practical privacy advice to overwhelmed companies. Oh, that’s your turn.

Justin Daniels: 00:38

Thank you. Very little.

Jodi Daniels: 00:39

Do you Remember who you are?

Justin Daniels: 00:39

Maybe. Okay. Hello, I am Justin Daniels. I am a shareholder and corporate M&A and tech transaction lawyer at the law firm Baker Donelson, advising companies in the deployment and scaling of technology.

Since data is critical to every transaction, I help clients make informed business decisions while managing data privacy and cybersecurity risk and when needed. I lead the legal cyber data Breach Response Brigade.

Jodi Daniels: 01:06

And this episode is brought to you by Wimpey. Red Clover Advisors we help companies to comply with data privacy laws and establish customer trust so that they can grow and nurture integrity. We work with companies in a variety of fields including technology, e-commerce, professional services and digital media. In short, we use data privacy to transform the way companies do business. Together, we’re creating a future where there’s greater trust between companies and consumers.

To learn more and to check out our best selling book Data Reimagined Building Trust One Byte at a Time, visit redcloveradvisors.com. Well, hello. Hello. Should I tell everyone that you ordered me the best chocolate chip cookie cake?

Justin Daniels: 01:49

Yes, but it appears my gift has missed the mark.

Jodi Daniels: 01:53

No, that’s not fair. Let’s talk about the amazing chocolate chip cookie cake that I had and that everyone should know it was this lovely cake. I’ve had two slices in my family ate all of the rest, very little leftover for me. The birthday girl. That’s another conversation because today we have a very exciting guest today.

Okay.

Justin Daniels: 02:15

Let’s do this.

Jodi Daniels: 02:15

Okay. We have Mark Weinstein, who is a successful tech entrepreneur, board member, and consultant in one of the visionary inventors of social networking. He is the author of Restoring Our Sanity Online, and he is the inventor of 15 ground breaking digital advertising patents. Mark has delivered the landmark TEDx talk The Rise of Surveillance Capitalism. He is frequently interviewed and published in major media outlets around the world.

And the reality is there’s a very long bio, so I highly recommend everyone go to the show notes to make sure you understand Mark’s amazing accomplishments. Mark, we’re so excited that you are here with us today.

Mark Weinstein: 02:56

Thank you Jodi. And you know, I was promised a slice of chocolate chip cookie cake, but I don’t know what happened. It didn’t show up in my studio. Just saying.

Jodi Daniels: 03:05

Yes. Well, you know, this is actually a funny story. So on our first date, Justin promised me that if he won his squash tournament because he was playing that weekend, that I was going to get chocolate chip cookies. And you want to know what? I’m still waiting for those chocolate chip cookies to.

They never came that day. Just saying. It’s seems to be a theme around here.

Mark Weinstein: 03:27

It’s great and it’s great to be here. I’m so honored to be talking to both of you. High integrity, remarkable, you know, human beings, professionals, because the topics we’re going to cover today are critically important for everybody, whether you’re, what, a kid, a parent, a grandparent, a lawnmower, you know, whatever, whatever you’re doing while you’re listening, you know, sharpen your ears because this is really the conversation of the day.

Jodi Daniels: 03:58

Well we agree. So Justin, kick us off.

Justin Daniels: 04:00

So as we get into the conversation of the day, could you tell us our audience a little bit about your career journey?

Mark Weinstein: 04:09

Yeah. You know, and it’s interesting because, you know, mobile phones, you know, smartphones weren’t invented when I was a kid. But by the time social media was around, I was a grown up and my ten year old nephew started talking to me about it. And this is in the 90s, everybody, when email, which is the same today, we had email in the 90s for all of our listeners who may not have been there. We had email in the 90s.

It hasn’t changed. It’s exactly the same. And so it’s as ghastly, one dimensional. You can’t really interpret, you know, you don’t get, you know, as ghastly today as it was then. And I had this conversation in 1997 with my then ten year old nephew about Uncle Marky.

Wouldn’t it be great if we could? Do you know, X, Y, and Z? Because the family, everybody was already working around the world and traveling and, you know, email just wasn’t working for us. And I looked at my nephew and I said, listen, I’m going to start ten minutes in the conversation. He said, I’m starting a new company.

We’re going to build this thing. We’re going to use all this newfangled technology, and I’m going to give you 10% of it. You’re going to be our chief kid. Officer. And I went ahead and I built Superfamily Com and superfriends.com, which became PC magazine top 100 sites in the late 90s, three years in a row.

And, you know, a lot of people don’t even realize, yes, social media was around in the 90s and it was beautiful because we division was classic. When you’re a capitalist entrepreneur, you’re, you know, when you come up with an idea, it’s always about taking care of the customer. It’s like, wow, here’s a great idea. People are going to love it, and you’re all about serving it, you know, people and making sure they love it. So that’s how social media started.

It wasn’t about surveillance. Capitalism wasn’t about collecting data, wasn’t about spying on people. It was about connecting the world, connecting family and friends, like minded people, making the world a more harmonious place, and staying in touch with everybody you love. While they traveled around the world and worked wherever they wanted to work. That’s how it starts.

Jodi Daniels: 06:15

So, Mark, tell us a little bit about where we are now, because you have this book out there restoring our sanity online. So tell us a little bit about the book, the inspiration for what prompted it and what you hope people take away.

Mark Weinstein: 06:29

So, you know, the rapid iteration of the web that was web one, and then web one blows up in 2001, because the revenue model in web one was get as many members as possible. That’s all investors were interested in. All of a sudden, investors were panicked. In 2001, they became interested in money in revenue, and thousands of companies went out of business hours, including. We had plenty of members when we were working on our new revenue model.

Web two was born. Web two is the rise of surveillance capitalism. Web two the revenue model is born. Google gives birth to it, Facebook gives birth to it, Myspace is there. And of course, then we and we’re still in web two.

Everybody, just in case you’re wondering, well, how long does web two last web two lasts. It’s still going on. It’s surveillance capitalism where your data is monetized, where you are targeted and manipulated, your opinions, your purchases, your thoughts, your medical records. Everything is fair game for the what I call the massive data ecosystem. And there then there’s a movement to web three, which is blockchain, cryptocurrency, decentralized data, which is important, by the way.

We’ll talk about that. But so where we are the reason. So in web two I started a new company Miwi Miwi. Miwi still exists. Miwi?

We had a privacy bill of rights. There was no targeting, no newsfeed manipulation, no algorithm studying you, no data packet on you. And meta, as there’s an antitrust case right now massively interfered with me. We as meta did with many other companies. You know this is when they were Facebook.

Of course. Now Facebook is a division of meta. So so here’s where we are. Four years ago I left me with me, as I said, still exists in me, has poured it into Web3 under a different management team. And I endeavored to take three years to write basically the prescription, the formula for how we can fix social media, how we can take care of our kids in critical thinking, how we can get rid of bots and trolls, how we can really serve creators, how we can empower all users to have revenue shares because they’re your engagement as a member of a site is what generates revenue for the site.

Now I I in the book I talk about something called web four. I also tell a boatload of great stories, you know, stories from the trenches, because I’m the only person, the only entrepreneur, the only executive who’s come from the trenches from a highly ethical perspective and tells the stories about how this all evolved. And also, there’s one interesting little chapter in the book that I really love, which is that the movement of big agriculture, big energy and big tech, from free market capitalism to monopolies, all three segments follow the same pattern and how we can disrupt that. By the way, this is the perfect marriage of democracy and capitalism. Free market capitalism is what makes things work.

And right now we’re kind of stuck with monopolies of social media, etc..

Jodi Daniels: 09:46

I have lots of thoughts. And Justin, I know you did too, but it was interesting to hear you talk about web four, because years ago people were talking about web three. And now I don’t feel like anyone talks about web three. Are we going to skip over web three and just move to web four?

Mark Weinstein: 09:59

You know, that’s such a good question. I have three chapters in my book that debunk web three, because first, there was the promise of web three, and everybody the promise of web three was, okay, we’re going to disrupt the the metas. We’re going to disrupt, we’re going to get our our data back. We’re going to take ownership of our data, ownership of our privacy. We’re going to, you know, all these.

Now here’s the thing though. Actually blockchain connects you. You’re you’re always identified if you’re using blockchain. And that’s why it works so well for financial transactions and things like that. Blockchain is also super slow as an engineering foundation for anything like social media, because social media functions on, you know, you can’t even there’s not a number for how many, you know, transactions, how many communications between when you’ve got your upwards of 50 million plus.

And of course Meta’s got 3 billion people. These you can’t build a social network on blockchain. And the other complete floor of the Web3 vision was that social media users would be interested in monetizing their relationships. It’s a complete misunderstanding of human communication because Web3 was founded on well, I’m going to upvote downvote you and you’re going to get little, you know, fragments of cryptocurrency for doing it because it’s founded on cryptocurrencies. And Web3 has actually been around.

Companies have been doing this since 2017, and they’ve either failed or they’ve stalled with no more than really a million users because people don’t want to commoditize their relationships. We’re not in social media to make money in between each other on social media to communicate. So Web3 is a total bust for social media. Blockchain works well for other transactional pieces. Data decentralization is also a good part of what blockchain can do for us, but that’s about it.

So we need to move. We need to just wipe the slate clean, as I do in the book, and we move into what I call web four, which is really a hybrid. So where we get data portability because data decentralization, if you control your data, everybody imagine this. And the inventor of the web, Sir Tim Berners-Lee, has invented this. It’s functioning.

It’s ready to go. It’s called a pod. So the solid pod that he’s invented. So all your data you control, you control your ID, you control your wallet, you control your data. You can download it from any site.

If once this is in place. Because what we need is some regulations around data portability. So once you control your data then you can decide where you want your data to go. Oh I want my? My pictures here.

I want my post here. You know, on meta, wherever they are. But then if you’re unhappy and there’s a better company that you prefer that treats you better, that respects you, that has higher integrity, say, wait, I’m taking all my stuff off of here and I’m moving over there. The network effect will then be sort of interrupted because right now people are stuck on Instagram, they’re stuck on TikTok, they’re stuck on Facebook because of the network effect, in particular on Facebook, where you’re connected to your family and friends and everybody’s there and your coworkers when you’re being social with them. It’s called the network effect.

Everybody or your social graph, your personal social graph. So if you leave, if you abandon that, those sites especially, you know, a personal social network like Facebook, everybody else isn’t going with you because there’s no data portability yet. So this is where the future is. This is where web four goes. You won’t be targeted.

And if you want to participate in surveillance capitalism, then you will choose that and you will be paid to participate as to, in other words, to allow people to access your data to target you.

Justin Daniels: 13:58

So I want to follow up what Jodi was saying about, hey, let’s just skip to web four and go back to what you said earlier and maybe talk a little bit more about whether it’s web four or the dysfunctional system we have now. Talk a little bit about your prescriptions around how we change the model, be it regulations, education, otherwise. So we can understand where you’re coming from on that.

Mark Weinstein: 14:26

You know there’s a couple of just fundamentals everybody simple fundamentals data portability. And there’s something else now. As you both know I’ve been one of the leaders of the privacy movement for years. When I built Me.we to compete with Facebook, we created a ten point privacy Bill of rights, including back in the day, everybody was using facial recognition and we said, your face is your business. We don’t have facial recognition.

We don’t aggregate your data, we don’t spy on you. We don’t do any of this stuff. You do have to follow our strict terms of service. So for the future, we do need some government involvement. We need the Kids Online Safety Act, which has bipartisan support.

We need that passed and signed by the president. We need Coppa to the Children’s Online Privacy Protection Act, which is now updated and modified. We need that passed and signed by the president. And these bills are you could say they’re 85 or 90% perfect, and they’re maybe 10% where they could be updated. But we’ve got to get these done and then we can update them.

So but also here’s where it becomes more interesting. After all these years is one of the world’s leading privacy advocates. I am now supporting user ID verification on social media. And I want you all to hear this on social media. We still will protect people, can still have pseudonyms.

We you know, and remember, if you’re a whistleblower or you’re a marginalized community or person, you’re not you know, you’re not broadcasting that on social media. We still want to protect those communities. But on social media, for our kids, if we want to get rid of bots and trolls, we want to protect our children, then we’ve got to have user ID verification. There are countries Australia is looking at this, Spain is looking at this. You know, in Europe, the whole European community is looking at this because, you know, kids and I mean kids up to the age of 18, 13 to 18 want to be strict about, you know, not letting kids on social media unless they’re really 13.

And then, you know, we want to protect them until they’re 18 so that no creep can get access to them. Nobody can boost, you know, content into their news feeds. They’re really just talking to their friends. And this also we this will help. Once we get to user ID verification, we can start to get rid of bots and trolls.

And my book has a seven point plan for exactly. It’s not complicated to get rid of bots and trolls. Why have we not gotten rid of them? Gotten rid of them because they make these sites money. If half of Elon Musk’s followers are bots and trolls, which was documented by time magazine, then why does he want to get rid of bots and trolls?

They create engagement. They can get blue checks because bots and trolls can be programmed to have credit cards, etc. they’re all over the web. And why hasn’t anybody Facebook, meta, Instagram, TikTok? They don’t want to get rid of them. So we’re just going to have to regulate for, you know, user ID verification so that we can get back to this also, by the way, saves democracy.

Another key point, because we don’t really hate each other in America, but we have been tricked to hate each other by bots and trolls.

Justin Daniels: 17:45

So, Mark, when you talk about the regulation part and I do this myself, how does the idea behind your regulatory solutions work when you’re dealing with big Tech? Who are the richest set of companies and people in human history and their influence, particularly as I’ve seen their whole view on AI change, they went from please regulate us to crickets. How do you get around that? It’s almost like you need a president like Teddy Roosevelt who was willing to bust the trusts.

Mark Weinstein: 18:29

Jodi, look, there’s no question about it. It’s an uphill game. However, I am known, as you know, and I like Travis Kelce said this when he was asked are you a cup half full or cup half empty person? He said, I’m a full cup, so I’m a full cup because we know, you know. And even back in the day, Martin Luther King, when he said, the arc of the universe, you know, it, it tilts towards, you know, positive change.

I’m paraphrasing. We just have to keep chipping away. The Kids Online Safety Act exists. It has bipartisan support. I’m hoping Melania Trump will get behind it like she did with the Take it Down act.

And you know, same thing with Coppa too. We need some support to protect our kids. That and you’re right. Listen, the tech companies, even with the FTC antitrust cases, the FTC’s Google case and meta, you know, look, they can pay, you know, for for more lawyers. Their budgets are massive.

The tech companies, they have, you know, billions of dollars in budgeting for lobbyists. This is actually a challenge. It’s a challenge for democracy. But we can’t throw in the towel. And the fact is, there are gentlemen, you know, people, men and women.

But there’s Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the web who is hard at work on this. There’s people like was and Tim and was have also endorsed my book. They say it’s a must read. It’s a vital read because the formula is there. It’s all doable.

This is all coming because technology evolves. So data decentralization is coming anyhow, whether the big companies want it or not, it’s coming. User ID verification is coming anyhow, whether big companies want to try and stop it or not, it’s coming because we’ve got to protect our kids and that’s going to win. So there are things that are coming and then, by almost inadvertent coincidence, they will start to interrupt the bots and trolls, which will also help with democracy because it’s usually a nefarious entity, a be in the various country. Russia, China, you know, or some other entity that’s trying to disrupt our democracy by making us hate each other, where the backbone of democracy is disagreement.

Everybody. We seem to have forgotten that that’s the backbone of democracy, that what what makes democracy great. We can disagree, and then we can go have a beer together. We can go have our kids play sports together. It’s like, that’s normal.

Then we go to the ballot box and we vote. So, Jody, I am very much, you know, this may take 5 to 10 years instead of happening tomorrow, but we are on the right path.

Jodi Daniels: 21:17

For people listening who might just be people and not the company. What can what do you suggest that people do now, either to protect themselves, their protect their kids, or to help move to this next evolution?

Mark Weinstein: 21:35

You know, and that’s a great question. And I think, Justin, I’ve been calling you Jody.

Justin Daniels: 21:44

So there’s a reason why it always says Jody Daniels. I’m being discriminated against.

Mark Weinstein: 21:50

You’re hired for everybody who’s listening. You know, under Justin’s image is Jody’s name. Somehow, when the the podcast started. And I’m just not thinking. I’m just calling him Jody.

So, you know, listen, there’s some fundamentals and the book every chapter has. Here’s what you can do right now because this is not pie in the sky. And you know some things are pretty simple. Look a great example going back to Justin’s thread there. School systems whole school systems are banning phones in schools.

Now we know tech companies don’t want that. They depend on the whole feeder system from the teenagers, you know, being hooked on their platforms for countless hours every day. So that’s already happening. You know, so we have that. And what we need to do now is people, you know, number one is at home.

You know, your kids if they you know and you to it’s like lock up your phone. You know, the rules of good sleep are don’t bring your phone into the bedroom. So the rules of the family really are, you know, whatever, whatever time is bedtime, everybody’s phone is downstairs somewhere, preferably in a secure area if need be, if people if the kids won’t, you know, put, you know, a like adhere to the rule. But you know, remember kids do what you do not what you say. So if there’s no phones at the dinner table, then there’s no phones at the dinner table.

If there’s no phones while we’re doing homework, then there’s no phones while we’re doing homework. If there’s no phones after 9:00 or 10:00 and they’re locked up and everybody’s is charging, and that’s the rule of the family, then that’s the rule of the family. Parents. Whatever you do, your kids are going to do to now we use our phones differently as parents and kids because we use them for work. That’s a distinction.

They’re not using their phones for schoolwork as much as they’re using their computers, and that’s different. So also but computers are shut down because of course they have an iPad and they have an iPhone. You know, they’re going to be able to, you know, keep using their computer in their bedroom instead of their phone. So no gaming the system. You know, we want to just have some simple common sense.

And the other thing is parents, you know, we’ve got to teach our kids what critical thinking is. And we can’t depend on the school systems anymore. You know, because this is way beyond listen, when we were kids, I will just say for everybody, the three of us are old enough that we didn’t have an iPhone when we were 15. So but even when we were 15, advertisers knew that up until you were 14, like, you know, through 13, you believed anything you saw on television or heard on radio it that was an ad or a magazine. You believed it was telling the truth.

So now here we have kids on social media, kids on YouTube, kids on TikTok, kids everywhere, you know, and they’re believing everything they’re seeing. So the what we need to do today is really look at things with our kids, see what they’re looking at and have conversations with them and teach them how to critically think better than ever.

Jodi Daniels: 25:07

And your favorite phrase.

Justin Daniels: 25:08

Is.

Justin Daniels: 25:09

Well, and I think when Mark says that, now we get into the conversation of, you know, Mark, as you talk about web four, you talk about this decentralization of data, but now you have artificial intelligence. And I just saw an article today I was reading about how it’s just basically gone viral. The president uses deep fakes. Everyone uses deepfakes. And to me, one of the biggest issues I have with AI is how it will deaden people’s critical thinking skills.

Because the AI said it, it must be right or I can just do that. So how do you, with all of your background and experience with what you’ve seen, evolve, shoehorn AI into how it impacts this future that you see or would like to have?

Mark Weinstein: 26:00

So everybody and thank you, Justin, for a great question today. Technology is ahead of our understanding of it, our interpretation of it, and certainly ahead of the white haired guys, men and women, you know, who make the laws in our country. But we we do eventually get close to catching up. So one of the things that we’ve got to look at today with AI and I’ve written this, there’s some very simple ways to regulate AI. Number one is to get some regulations in place.

And I wrote about this on Fox and everybody. I’m published everywhere. I am agnostic about the news outlets because I always tell it doesn’t matter if there’s a political slant to a news outlet. For me, all they want is common sense answers and the truth. I wrote a a prescription on how we can regulate AA.

One is very simple. We need to have a regulation so we identify AI wherever it is. So if you’re using an AI friend to craft, you know how you’re talking to a girl you’re interested in or a boy you’re interested in that needs to be flagged. If you know you’re using AI for research, you know we need to make sure wherever AI is used now, there’s a whole new division of AI. This agentic AI, which is also now coming into Hollywood.

So, you know, and I went to a presentation two weeks ago, you can just create a whole video or a movie using AI in a matter of minutes, and the AI will generate the script, will generate the story and then you can direct and change it. And you know, the storyline AI will just do whatever you say. So this is a you say, take this point of view. AI is not going to filter that for its ethics or its integrity. So you know, Justin, you’re right.

I mean, this is this is really important. Also AI where I’m really concerned about AI is the algorithms that are watching everything that we do are now supercharged by AI. Algorithms have been around for a long time. You could say there were the an earlier quasi artificial intelligence because they were learning by watching AI supercharge algorithms learn so fast about you and how to manipulate you that before your next thought, AI already knows what it’s going to be, and AI can manipulate that can manipulate how you think about an issue your vote, your purchase decision, your attitude about a certain group of people or a friend. This is terrifying.

And what we need to do is get in in the way here. And this is also good. I of course everybody we’re just not talking about that today. But, you know, AI has a lot of incredibly positive possibilities for medical, for work, for lots of great areas. But this is so far beyond us.

And we’ve really got to create systems to identify where AI is being used in our lives. And so we’re going to have to get there, Justin. We’re going to have to get there. And I do believe that before humanity is disrupted, we’re you know, we will see in Europe where their sense of deregulation will see it in China because they don’t want their people manipulated by AI, you know, unless they’re using it. The government’s using it for, you know, particular propaganda reasons.

We’re going to see governments who are more powerful than the tech companies step in, or regulatory agencies like GDPR, like the European Commission, who are going to step in. The Australians are probably going to step in. So we’re just at the beginning of seeing how this regulation is going to occur.

Jodi Daniels: 29:47

I can imagine that at a party you are very popular and people have all kinds of the questions like, what should I be doing right now from a privacy and security point of view? So what would be that one tip you would tell someone at a party that they can, that they can do today?

Mark Weinstein: 30:07

Well, Jodie, listen, that’s a loaded question everybody. Because, you know, the one thing that I would say to everybody is just use an encrypted chat, don’t use WhatsApp because, you know, meta announced several years ago and I alerted everybody before this back in 2016, everybody that they were going to spy on you and aggregate and get all your data from WhatsApp. The only thing they can’t see is the actual conversation. Everything else, who you’re talking to, where you are, what you’re doing, all that stuff. So it’s very simple.

I say just use texting with your friends. Use an app like signal if you want encrypted, you know, an encrypted chat and and really get off social media. You can be a viewer, you know, because there’s a lot of peer pressure, especially for kids. You might want to watch something interesting on YouTube. You know, that’s fine, but just take yourself out of the game.

You want to use LinkedIn for for your career. That’s really important for everybody. Once you’re, you know, like 18 and above. And remember, if you’re a young person, everything you do is going to come back. Any company that’s looking at hiring you is going to hire AI.

They’re just going to, you know, their HR department’s just going to ask ChatGPT an advanced version of it to find everything ever known about you on the web. And they’re going to aggregate that, and they’re going to look at it, and they’re going to make a decision on whether they’ll even interview you based on that. So have fun with your friends in real life. Ask them not to stick pictures of you and compromise situations anywhere and get off social media as a participant.

Jodi Daniels: 31:50

Thank you for sharing.

Justin Daniels: 31:53

So Mark, when you’re not writing best selling books, being a media voice, what do you like to do for fun?

Mark Weinstein: 32:02

You know, I have a website everybody. Markweinsteininventor.com, by the way, the digital advertising patents that I have because it was mentioned at the beginning. Those are anonymizing. So back in, in the day when all these companies were looking at how can we get patents on stealing and getting everybody’s data, I was looking at how can we give you a personalized ad that completely anonymizes you? So the company that’s serving the ad, the web company, the marketing company that’s paying to have that ad served to you, paying the web company.

How can you be anonymized every step of the way? So that’s what my patent portfolio is about, protecting our privacy. But, you know, look, I like to get, you know, I like fast cars. I like to race cars where I can, you know, as a hobby. You know, I’m an athlete.

I’m still an athlete. Love to swim, love to coach teams, you know? But listen, any of you who have kids, you know, your life, you know, outside of work really becomes, you know, your kids lives. So, you know, I’m the daddy chauffeur, you know, and and all that good stuff. So, you know, I haven’t I haven’t seen a movie in a long time, let’s put it that way.

Jodi Daniels: 33:20

Well, we’re so glad that you could join us today if people would like to connect with you. Where is the best place that they should go?

Mark Weinstein: 33:27

So you can you can go. You can email me Mark@restoretheweb.com. You can go to my website. Markweinsteininventor.com. And and you know snoop around and then send me a message if you want.

Also on LinkedIn you can, you know message me there. And the book Restoring Our SanityOnline. You can see in the background if you’re you’re you have video on it’s available wherever books are sold. It was in all the airport stores for nearly the year. It’s a 2025 copyright.

And it’s a, you know, look, it’s not a thick read. People think, oh, I’m going to buy a 400 page book. This is 157 pages of short, punchy chapters of action plans and great stories. How do we get here? You know, did Facebook really ask everybody in Australia to send them a nude picture of themselves.

The answer is yes. You’re going to read stories that are just jaw dropping about. You know how you know how this all evolved from the 1990s to today and where we are, and then how do we get to where we want to get to? Also, if you’re an entrepreneur, there are tons of ideas in the book for new companies that the world is ready for. So, you know, have a good time with it.

If you want me to come speak somewhere, you know, to your class or, you know, universities or you know your company on best practices, happy to do so. Thank you everybody.

Jodi Daniels: 34:59

Wonderful. Thank you so much, Mark.

Mark Weinstein: 35:02

It’s my pleasure. You guys are great.

Outro: 35:07

Thanks for listening to the She Said Privacy He Said Security podcast. If you haven’t already, be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes and check us out on LinkedIn. See you next time.