Privacy, Security, and Drones

Intro 0:01  

Welcome to the She Said Privacy/He Said Security Podcast. Like any good marriage we will debate, evaluate, and sometimes quarrel about how privacy and security impact business in the 21st century.

Jodi Daniels  0:21  

Hi, Jodi Daniels here. I’m the Founder and CEO of Red Clover Advisors, a certified women’s privacy consultancy. I’m a privacy consultant and certified informational privacy professional providing practical privacy advice to overwhelmed companies.

Justin Daniels  0:38  

Hi, Justin Daniels. Here I am a technology attorney who is passionate about helping companies solve complex cyber and privacy challenges during the lifecycle of their business. I’m the cyber quarterback helping clients design and implement cyber plans as well as help them manage and recover from data breaches.

Jodi Daniels  0:54  

This episode is brought to you by Red Clover Advisors, we help companies to comply with data privacy laws, and establish customer trust so that they can grow and nurture integrity. We work with companies in a variety of fields, including technology, SAS, ecommerce, media and professional services. In short, we use data privacy, to transform the way companies do business. Together, we’re creating a future where there’s greater trust between companies and consumers. To learn more, visit redcloveradvisors.com. Justin, I know you’re so excited.

You’re like a little kid rat bouncing out of your seat

Jodi Daniels  1:35  

for this topic. Yeah, so we’re talking about today, we’re talking about unmanned aircraft systems known as?

Justin Daniels  1:47  

Exactly. So today, we have Tom Walker, who is the Founder and CEO of DroneUp, DroneUp, provides drone delivery and flight services to organizations and communities, has also brought a singular purpose to the unmanned transportation market to bring the economic benefits of drones that are essential for communities and our competitive standing in the world to market today. And the other thing I just want to say as the other reason I’m excited to have Tom is you’re going to learn how seriously his company takes privacy and security, which in the drone industry, I consider to be really important. So Tom, welcome.

Tom Walker  2:31  

Thank you for having me. I’m excited. I’m looking forward to the conversation.

Jodi Daniels  2:34  

Absolutely, sir. Tom talks us a little bit about how you got here to building DroneUp.

Tom Walker  2:43  

You Yeah, I appreciate the question. So after I got out of the military, I served in the military, both as a nuclear engineer, and then transit transitioned over into special operations after I was commissioned. And, and, and spent my career there doing a whole variety of interesting things around the world. And then after getting out of the military join, my wife’s company, was the president of her company, it was a technology and software development company. And after several years of doing that, I became aware of drones, I actually didn’t have a background in drones. But I kind of was amazed one day when I walked into Best Buy. And I realized that for under $1,000, I could buy this autonomous device that actually had more technology than the space shuttle originally did, and, and realize that these things were going to have a fundamental impact on society. I wasn’t 100% clear exactly what that was going to be and how that was going to be. But I knew that, that that, that they were going to be powerful and impactful. And so we began developing some software that would allow us to identify drone operators, what skill sets they had, what drone platforms they had, and then be able to rapidly deploy them for missions, whether it was volunteer missions that supported public safety, emergency response, or whether it was commercial operations. And before you know it, before we knew it, we had over 20,000 operators in the system, and and the demand for services began to grow. And eventually we kind of grew out of that sold that technology company and now and went all in on DroneUp.

Jodi Daniels  4:24  

It’s such a fascinating story. And, and I think you’re right, we’re really just at the beginning of of where this is going. So start us off.

Justin Daniels  4:36  

Oh, where should we begin? I think I would like to begin by asking you, Tom, what type of data can drones collect that might surprise people? Well,

Tom Walker  4:47  

the amount of data and the type of sensors that are out there right now are powerful. Obviously. We can we have high resolution at this point and down to being able to determine whether a what side of A coin, the coin on the ground is from several 100 feet in the air, the visual capabilities are obviously significant, we have thermal capabilities where we can determine where any, any particular living organism is from several 100 feet in the air, we can tell people’s temperature from from over 200 feet in the air. But then we also have other sensors that we’re testing that some people may not be aware of. For example, we have sensors that can identify the identity of a particular cell phone or the registration and ID numbers of a cell phone from in the air by simply putting a device on there that that appears as though it is a cell tower. So cell phones in the area will attempt to check in and provide their registration data, that data in and of itself doesn’t necessarily identify the user on the ground. But that data combined with other data sources can so just simply by having your phone on, a drone sensor in the air could capture that. In addition to that we have, we’ve seen some interesting studies, for example, flying over crime scenes using certain multispectral and hyperspectral devices can determine fluids, what type of fluids are at a crime scene from in the air and create dynamic imagery, almost instantaneous of a crime scene and wherever drop of blood and every drop of other bodily fluids might be within a crime scene. Obviously, that’s not necessarily a privacy concern, unless those particular sensors like I just talked about, are utilized for nefarious purposes, outside of what they may have been previously designed for.

Jodi Daniels  6:40  

I have a follow up question to what you just shared, if you are in the error, unable to see some of those very fine details, can you add a little bit of how some of that information is used? You talked about the crime scene example what would be some other examples where that information is collected and how it’s utilized.

Tom Walker  7:03  

So for example, one of the things that we can do with with the with the multispectral hyperspectral sensors is we can do geological surveys that are that are perfectly acceptable, where we can fly over a particular area and determine mineral deposits and quality of soil and we can fly over agriculture and we can determine the growth condition, fungus condition, water condition and health of plants. They you know, we are able to just essentially fly right over a a parking lot, for example. And we can tell whether the lighting is appropriate based on the current code requirements and whether the spaces and we can do all of that almost instantaneously. There’s other things that we can do as well, for example, you we could fly over a parking lot and and capture, we can I’m not saying we do I want to be very clear on that I’m here we’re talking about what the capabilities that are out there that people may be surprised about, that can instantly collect all of the all of the license plate data in the parking lot, and even the VIN numbers through the windows over the dash and then put the VIN number to the license plate number for rapid identification of vehicle

Jodi Daniels  8:15  

ownership. So as you just pointed out, those are some of the capabilities of what you can do not necessarily what what you are doing and laws like to come around to help decide what companies can and can’t be doing. Can you share a little bit about some of the privacy regulations that might exist now and how they are positively or negatively impacting the drone industry?

Tom Walker  8:42  

Yeah, this is an interesting, this is an interesting intersection that I think is going to become even more significant as the volume of drone flights increase. And so for example, there’s one law in Arkansas right now, that’s on the books that says you cannot capture any any any private property, video or, or imagery from a drone. It’s very specific to drones, you can do it from satellites, you can do it from planes and helicopters, you can do it from the ground can’t do it from drones. That’s an interestingly restrictive rule because while I understand the intent of why it was put in there, which was really more geared to non professional recreational operators and putting drones over private property and collecting data, it does become very restrictive in terms of certain projects we do so for example, one of the projects we do a lot is we all do fly a piece of property and get an ortho mosaic for maybe preconstruction or post construction analysis or we’re doing a parking lot inspection, where we’re flying to do to measure the quality of the pavement to see if it needs any improvements. And then there’s homes adjacent to that. And it’s almost impossible because the altitude that you’re flying to not incidentally capture those homes. So there’s an example of a rule that’s in there. That ostensibly made sense when they implemented it, but from a commercial viability standpoint is problematic. In areas where that rule doesn’t exist, for example, when we fly, once we capture that data prior to providing that back to the customer, even though we we captured the the incidental capture that private property was appropriate, and in accordance with the execution of the mission we were doing, we eliminate that data, we delete that data, we shred that data so that there’s never a possibility that we are accidentally providing that incidental collection data to a third party.

Jodi Daniels  10:43  

To kind of Tom on that topic. And we’re going to talk more about how seriously your company takes its data collection practices, so what are some of the unanticipated consequences of drone video associated with the first responders to traffic accidents, because I know your company also assists in that area as well.

Tom Walker  11:05  

this is where this is where our industry is, is again, kind of at that point of having to make decisions that are in the best interest of our industry in terms of demonstrating our commitment to privacy and security, that sometimes at the risk of not collecting data that has potential positive implications. So for example, you know, when we are flying, even if it’s a parking lot inspection, or whether we’re flying in support of first responders, where there may be a traffic aspects of that, and we’re collecting that data. Oftentimes, there is other data that we incidentally collect, where is maybe it’s a stolen vehicle, or perhaps, as one incident that is very unfortunate incident that happened with us where we had most likely collected some data that could have been useful in a sex trafficking case. Because we didn’t keep that data because we, we, we refused until we have an adequate position on it, where we can justify the retention of that data, we eliminated and deleted that data right away. And even though law enforcement came to us X afterwards, and determined that what we had recorded would have been very useful in potentially preventing an escalation of a sex trafficking event, we didn’t have the data. And at the time, we just didn’t keep the data, because we could not, we just didn’t have the confidence in our controls. Because the data is coming off sometimes unencrypted, and then it’s going into a wherever it’s time a Google Drive or another set, and we didn’t have the encryption, we didn’t have the controls. And so we didn’t keep it. And we know of at least one actually know of two instances where that data would have had a positive impact on society that didn’t occur, because of our strict consideration around the retention of that data.

Jodi Daniels  13:04  

I’m curious, obviously, that was a kind of societal event for and you’re flying all different different types of missions, do any of your customers? Are they asking, Can you retain that data? Do they? Do they want it for future purposes?

Tom Walker  13:19  

No, actually, the larger customers have the same concerns that we have. And they trust us on it. I mean, you have to keep in mind, you know, people try to compare it to satellite data. But if you look at satellite data, and you zoom in really close, sometimes you it’s hard to tell the difference between a horse a house and a dog, right? The data that we’re collecting can literally identify a person very, very rapidly. And so our bigger customers specifically are a delivery customers. Our policy is we don’t record anything, we don’t even take a picture of the product being delivered. So like when Amazon sets it on your porch, and they’ll oftentimes take a picture of it to show you that we don’t even do that. We literally have our systems set so that they will not record and will not collect any visual data. Now, we can view the data while we’re flying, which is obviously for safety purposes to ensure that a there’s nothing in front of us, you are not flying over people or moving vehicles. And see we’re not delivering a package on grandma’s head. But that data is real time non stored non cached. And we we verify that on a continual basis to ensure that not even our developers have or operators on the ground have the ability to enable that that data capture.

Justin Daniels  14:38  

And Tom, just for our audience purpose. There’s no legal requirement that you have to do that. That’s a principle that’s part of your organization

Tom Walker  14:46  

100% And the only only the only area that we operate in in the country that has a legal requirement for that that currently we’re operating on is Arkansas, but we operate with the same with that same cops in every area that we operate under unless it is specifically a data collection mission, but and if the if it’s not, for example, delivery, we don’t collect, we don’t collect any of that data.

Jodi Daniels  15:09  

Well, what’s your say? In that vein, our best practices for data collection practices? Well,

Tom Walker  15:16  

I think the most important thing is, you know, we’ve had some weird things, too. So we’ve had people call and say, We would like you to go fly over and do give me an aerial ortho mosaic of this particular piece of property. And initially, when we first started, we’d say, Okay, where’s the property? What is it, we’ll take the mission. And then one day, we were had a customer, and he said, I need you to fly this piece of property, this piece of property and get it back to me as soon as you can. And we said, Okay, what kind of data do you want, he said, just all the imagery you can collect of it. It’s my neighbor. And I really want to know what’s going on over there. And we were like, oh, so the one of the things that I tell people, if you’re going to go do aerial missions, and collect data, you need to do two things to make sure that you’re doing appropriately one, make sure the customer that is ordering this from you has the authority to review that property and make sure that you put the liability on them for their responsibility to do that. And if at any point, you don’t feel like this is an appropriate flight or appropriate in terms of data collection, don’t take it, there’s plenty of other work out there. It is a powerful tool, right? I mean, it is a powerful tool when you put it in the air and you’re operating. So the number one thing is when if you want to is a don’t collect anything you shouldn’t collect and be don’t retain anything, deliver it to the customer customer signed off for acceptance, then you need to have a approved procedure process that you can put in front of somebody that shows that you have it you have you have deleted that data. And it is completely in a condition that cannot be recovered.

Jodi Daniels  16:54  

Those data minimization practices, right, don’t retain only collect, but you absolutely need those are in line with all the current and future privacy laws that are coming along. That’s sort of the the modern theme, because so many different tools nowadays are data collection machines, drones, extra special data collection machines. So it’s really great to see that you’re adopting those principles here. And it seems like the idea of ethics, that intersection of ethics and the data collection is incredibly important and valuable to the work that you’re doing.

Tom Walker  17:29  

Well, I appreciate that. But I think the hardest part here is anytime you have a device that’s in the air that has that capability, it is almost impossible to implement policy that constrains what you can and can’t do. And as you begin to put in specific legal rules and regulations, then it we’ve seen every time one of these has been implemented in the Drone World, it became a commercial roadblock. In many cases, we’re not sure that it actually it actually accomplished anything, because it’s nearly impossible to actually prove that somebody collected data from a drone that they shouldn’t have collected. First off, you have to have the identity of the drone. And then which you don’t have a way to do right now, there’s no way to know if a drone flies over your head, you have no way right now of going I know exactly who that is and what they’re collecting isn’t you don’t that’s part of the reasons for the remote ID rule. One of the things that the FAA wants to be able to put in so that we can identify if somebody calls and says, Hey, your drones flying over my head, there is a way we have ways to do that. But but the general public doesn’t. And so I believe at some point, this becomes good corporate stewardship, and ethical behavior. And it’s one of the reasons why as much as we believe there’s a lot of value in the data, I would love, nothing more to tell you. The truth is, as we’re flying delivery missions, and they spoke in hopes, Hub and Spoke operations, where I’m flying out in all these different directions, I would love to continuously collect that data, I think there’s enormous value in it. There’s enormous value for public safety, there’s enormous value to municipalities, and having updated recent typography of all of the different surroundings. There’s there’s other public safety concerns in that if there’s a massive event or a you know, some type of, you know, active shooter situation, being able to immediately provide data that goes this is what everything around here looks like in the last 24 hours to public safety, hugely valuable. But right now, until we as an industry come together and agree on a set of standards for how we can store that data. And then what are the appropriate policies for how and who can access that data? I feel like it’s just better that we don’t collect it.

Justin Daniels  19:53  

I find it interesting because Tom in a way what you’re proposing is something along the lines of what they do in the credit card industry with PCI Whereas an industry they’ve come up with a set of policies and principles that they all abide by that is to this point for stalled regulation and that industry because everyone knows, if you don’t comply with PCI, you won’t, you’ll be out of the club and everybody needs payment processing.

Tom Walker  20:19  

Well, it’s problem for industry, because we don’t have, so we don’t have a kind of an industry standards group that gets together and, and kind of all signs on and says, here’s how we’re going to do anything. I anything, we don’t have that. And, and more importantly, we’re controlled by a government agency, the FAA, who their job is not privacy and security. The FAS job is the protection of the airspace, it’s to ensure that when you get on an aircraft, that you have the highest probability of landing safely at wherever you’re going, it’s if they that’s their job. And so you have to think about this for a moment. If they say, Well, what government agency actually regulates the privacy and security components of what you do in the drone industry? Well, then you kind of have to just defer to law enforcement. And then what agency is over drones in terms of law enforcement, I mean, is that the local guy, the local BEAT COP, and you know, in Charleston, South Carolina, he doesn’t understand the rules. And so I think one of the things that’s going to have to happen, and I’m seeing some, some movement right now in the drone industry, is that the leaders in the industry are going to have to do what you just said. And we’re going to have to come together and agree on a set of principles. But the problem is, is in the credit card world, for example, you’ve got the big players, you know who they are, in our industry, you’ve got a few big players, and then mostly a bunch of small players, and there’s nothing that really motivates the small players to play along with whatever we agree. And more importantly, I’m not sure that it would be fair to them, because they don’t have the capital to invest into the security infrastructure. I mean, you know, we’re currently going through a sock two type two audit, we’re also working with NIST 853. And working to get FedRAMP certified, these things are not inexpensive. These are very expensive processes that by and large, would probably be unachievable by 96% of our industry. So it’s, this is not a challenge we’re going to solve today. And I think that’s why the bigger providers like us are just taking what I would consider to be the high road and, and instead of trying to figure out how to how to protect the data, we’re just trying to not collect the data.

Justin Daniels  22:47  

Well, Tom, in that vein, drone usage, kind of like web three and blockchain, it’s just evolving so rapidly. Give us a sense for what you see becoming commonplace in the next five years when it comes to drones should Jodi and I expect that we might be able to get on a Vitol helicopter and go a short distance, or

Jodi Daniels  23:06  

Jetsons? What do you think? Yeah. Well,

Tom Walker  23:11  

I’ll answer that a couple of ways. So you know, I think it was an 1829, the world’s fair 1839, maybe they had the first autonomous vehicle and it drove all around the world fair for months, right. And it was amazing, no driver, and back then it was that was the future cars are going to be driving themselves and everything. 80 years later, almost to the day I was in New York, standing outside of the Virgin hotel. And they were demonstrating a vehicle self driving vehicle new version that was going to leave a parking lot and drive 238 feet to the front of the hotel to pick us up. And in that 238 feet, it took out its sideswiped parking meter, and it took out the back tire of a California Highway Patrol motorcycle. And in my mind, if in 80 years, that’s how far we’ve come. I don’t think that I’m even close to being ready to get into an autonomous vehicle that’s actually going to actually fly and add an entirely new dimension to the way that it operates. The truth of the matter is, what’s got to happen. And it’s one of the reasons that we acquired air map, which is our biggest data challenge because we collect data for 10 1000s 10s of 1000s of flights a day in that system. But we don’t identify it with an operator. We don’t identify it with anything, but we do collect a lot of flight data, which is good data. But the reality is, is the technology to be able to fly autonomously and move around is there whether it’s 55 pounds or whether it’s 55 tons, right? We’ve we’ve seen self autonomous helicopters flying autonomous aircraft, there’s a 737 autonomy aircraft flying today and in a test area. Could we do it? Yes. What we don’t have the ability to do right now is deconflict that airspace 400 feet in below, you’ve got drone operators doing drone inspection, you’ve got recreational operators flying, you’ve got delivery operations, like the one that we’re doing at scale. Now all of a sudden, you want to have an autonomous taxi, come pick you up and fly you. The biggest threat is not that that autonomous vehicle may fail. That’s always a, you know, there’s no such thing as a perfect vehicle. But how do you deconflict that airspace? And I think that in before we’re going to be able to put people in completely unmanned vehicles and fly in a taxi model, if you will. People don’t like my answer, but I say that’s 10 plus years away. And I believe that what I do think is going to be much is going to be commonplace, much faster than most people have realized is his home delivery. You know, down in Arkansas right now, we literally are doing Order to Delivery in under 30 minutes. So from the time the orders placed until it’s set on the back porch is under 30 minutes now that we’ve become an impulsive society. That’s fast, right. And, and interestingly enough, the number one most ordered product, Hamburger Helper, and which I think is just if you want an interesting data point on that. Number two is mac and cheese. But so I think delivery is going to be something that you is going to become a viable option in your selection and checkout criteria when you order online. I think within I think within three years, somebody you know, will be getting drone delivery on a daily basis. And I think that I think that rather than driving police cars, and this is something people don’t like but I think rather than driving police cars through neighborhoods, I think that there will be certain neighborhoods where it will be appropriate to use drones for security and surveillance. And where it where it is appropriate. I

Jodi Daniels  27:05  

support it. I like it I can think of is the Jetsons. So with all the flying drones and I can think okay, so if it’s going to be, you know, prime rush hour, you’re going to have cars on the roads, but then you’re going to have oodles of drones going all over the place.

Justin Daniels  27:21  

That’s what that’s what Tom saying. He’s talking about UAS traffic management. That’s what he means by D conflicting the airspace. And that’s a big challenge that has to be addressed. Because if you fly and you hit something or besides bird or something, that spate that airspace is going to become very congested, as drone usage proliferates and becomes more mature.

Jodi Daniels  27:42  

Well, our daughter always would like our car to lift up so we don’t have to sit in traffic anymore. So you have a young engineer, ready to be able to tackle the How can we go? Actually people in the air to move across?

Tom Walker  27:56  

I think one of the things that gets overlooked is, is wire people on the road. And what do How can drones begin to minimize traffic, everybody immediately goes to how can I get in a drone and go somewhere. But if I can have things delivered to me rapidly, whether that’s groceries, whether that’s supplies, whether that’s prescription medication, whether that’s over the counter medication, or I can have my medical diagnostic equipment delivered to me by drone, so that I can do a home health telemedicine treatment, and then the drone can come pick it back up. It people often overlook the amount of traffic reduction that can be a result of the type of things that drones will be able to do. And so I think we could see why. While I wouldn’t say people will necessarily be flying from point a point, I think they may be able to drive easier as we start to see a traffic reduction through the use of not just drones, but other autonomous vehicles.

Jodi Daniels  28:50  

I think something that comes to mind is interesting how you said earlier at the moment, I wouldn’t be able to tell whose drone it is, well, I can envision drone accidents potentially could happen or a drone hit something maybe on the way and whose responsibility is it? If I asked for my hamburger helper to come to my house and the drone does something on my property or parts my flowers or I don’t know something? How do I put my blame? Well, in that particular

Tom Walker  29:21  

case, you know, the opposite, right? And so you’ve ordered it from say Walmart, it’s being delivered by DroneUp. We’re the operators were the ones that are operating the delivery vehicle, we would be responsible. I mean, that’s our responsibility. And in this particular case, you do know right, and this goes back to another thing that if people just follow the rules, every drone that’s operating in the airspace should have an FAA registration number on it. That is a requirement to legally operate in the airspace that drone crashes into your house. You should be able to go out take a picture of the FAA identification go online to the local Fisto file a report They’re gonna investigate. They know who that person is. It is only in the unusual circumstance where there’s no FAA identification, or it was a operator who was who, who you know you didn’t order from. But I will tell you that even in those cases, we have ways if the if you have the drone in your possession to determine who that operator’s super fascinating,

Jodi Daniels  30:21  

you’ll be happy to know Justin has filed all rules and has his FAA number. That’s true. Good, that’s good to know.

Tom Walker  30:29  

Not even allowed to put it. Interestingly enough, we used to be able to put that FAA identification number behind the battery. And so we didn’t have it out in the window. So it wouldn’t get born from environmental whatever, we’d stick it in behind the battery and put the battery in. So that the the sticker never got worn out. The FAA changed that rule that you had to put it outside and not under the battery. And everybody was like, Oh, that’s a really why did they do that. And the reason was, there was a concern that it could be potentially armed. And when you went to remove the battery, it could explode or whatever. So they did not want to have to force you to do any type of disassembly of the V of the vehicle in order to be able to determine the FAA registration number, which I supported that one. Huh, so,

Justin Daniels  31:16  

um, we like to ask all of our guests, what is your best privacy or security tip based on all of your years on this topic?

Tom Walker  31:24  

You know, for us, the number one thing and I know it’s overused, it’s overused, it’s overused, but it is a couple of things. The first one is, is maintaining our software and our firmware and everything up to date on on these, we are continually releasing upgrades based on new suspected unknown threats. And so for operators it is, you know, I have a lot of people who say, Yeah, I’ve got an update, but I’m, I got two or three things going on. And I need, I need to get this mission done. And the problem is, is, is many of the firmware and software updates that we’re doing today, or I would say 75% of them are security related updates. So maintaining those updates is a big thing. The second thing, and the most important thing is having a well defined privacy policy that is part of your onboarding process with your staff and your employees. And and making sure that you are coordinating the execution of that privacy policy with your customers as well. Because I might have a good policy on how I’m collecting and handling this data. If my customer does not, then all I’m doing is basically losing control that data. So we don’t just enforce our policies, we have our customers sign on and agree to and we can’t, we can’t we can’t police them. But at least we are we are we are trying to spread the goodness of our privacy and our security. And then the third thing is encouraging our staff, whether it’s somebody here in the corporate office, or whether it’s an operator out in the field, to immediately inform us of anything that they see that might be a potential security risk. And recognizing them for that accomplishment. I’ll tell you, we just had just happened just in the last week, we had an operator who was in one of our remote locations, and somebody had pasted the password, the system next to the keyboard. And this, you know, this young gentleman who had only been on the job for about a day, said I this just doesn’t look right. To me, this is a problem. And we’re like, Absolutely, and that those little things matter. Those little things

Jodi Daniels  33:34  

matter. When you are not building a drone company, and having so much work in keeping all of that data secure. What do you like to do for fun?

Tom Walker  33:48  

Fun, yes. So that I remember that. Remember, you know, I love that you’re my wife and I love to travel. And that’s been a problem for the last few years. I don’t know if you heard there was a virus issue that kind of disrupted things for a while. But, but we’re getting back we’re getting back to it now. And the reason that I love to travel is my wife is very good at finding the few remaining locations in the world where cell phones don’t work. We recently went our last two trips were Costa Rica in Belize. And I had withdrawal symptoms from my phone for the first few days but it’s amazing how relaxed and refreshed you feel when that when you win when you win you get yourself away from the rest of the world for a few days.

Jodi Daniels  34:38  

Absolutely. If people would like to learn more about DroneUp and you where is the best place to send them.

Tom Walker  34:45  

I’d send them to DroneUp.com. And we’re always looking for new partners and new ways of of innovating the future. This this industry right now is so exciting because it’s seriously just now reaching its suppliers Point. And not not just from a standpoint of technology, certainly not necessarily from a standpoint of regulations. But what I will tell you is that the customer adoption and the the the consumer opinion of drones has so dramatically improved in the last 24 months. I think some of that had to do a little bit with a pandemic. But that we haven’t even begun and and there are companies like ours that are just growing at it crazy rates and, and sometimes the partners aren’t who you think you think is another drone partner? No to get delivery partner, your restaurant be security companies. It can be you name it, there’s a lot of opportunity. So if anybody’s interested, we’re always looking for partners.

Justin Daniels  35:50  

Tom, I really want to thank you for coming on today. We’ve gotten to know each other here just recently, but drones are just an exploding industry. And congratulations on all the success to DroneUp and we look forward to hearing more as the trajectory seems to be continuing to rise. No pun intended. Hey,

Tom Walker  36:06  

our new tagline is the path forward is up.

Jodi Daniels  36:09  

Get on. Well, Tom, thank you again. Thank you so much.

Outro 36:18  

Thanks for listening to the She Said Privacy/He Said Security Podcast. If you haven’t already, be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes and check us out on LinkedIn. See you next time.