Automating Data Privacy

Intro  0:01  

Welcome to the She Said Privacy/He Said Security Podcast. Like any good marriage we will debate, evaluate, and sometimes quarrel about how privacy and security impact business in the 21st century.

 

Jodi Daniels  0:21  

Hi, Jodi Daniels here. I’m the founder and CEO of Red Clover Advisors, a certified women’s privacy consultancy. I’m a privacy consultant, and certified informational privacy professional, providing practical privacy advice for overwhelmed companies.

 

Justin Daniels  0:37  

Are you who am I?

 

Jodi Daniels  0:38  

Who are you? I’m not sure I’m gonna start singing from leaving soon.

 

Justin Daniels  0:41  

All right, we don’t want that. Actually, you have a nice singing voice. Hello Justin Daniels. Here I am passionate about helping companies solve complex cyber and privacy challenges during the lifecycle of their business. I am the cyber quarterback helping clients design and implement cyber plans as well as help them manage and recover from data breaches.

 

Jodi Daniels  1:01  

And this episode is brought to you by Red Clover Advisors. We help companies to comply with data privacy laws and establish customer trust so that they can grow and nurture integrity. We work with companies in a variety of fields, including technology, SAS, ecommerce, media, and professional services. In short, we use data privacy to transform the way companies do business. Together, we’re creating a future where there is greater trust between companies and consumers. To learn more, visit redcloveradvisors.com You’re ready to dive in. It’s gonna be a fun conversation.

 

Justin Daniels  1:38  

I’m waiting for you to introduce our guest.

 

Jodi Daniels  1:40  

Introducing our guests. I have a corner end part at the beginning and then I get the next part. Okay,

 

Justin Daniels  1:47  

so, today we have with us Leila Golchereh who is the co founder and CO CEO of Relyance AI a venture backed machine learning based privacy tech company rethinking data protection. Relyance believes privacy is a fundamental human right and that the approaches to solving for privacy until now have been fundamentally broken. As an entrepreneur and privacy expert, data protection policy attorney and former Data Protection Officer Leila has more than 15 years experience building global data protection programs in diverse sectors sectors like AI, IoT and health care, and counseling for clients across the Americas, European Union, Asia and Mina. Her experience with existing privacy solutions drove her to co found Relyance AI and reimagined what data protection means in a globalized technology driven world. And she has no idea why that’s just the perfect segue. So Jodi, why don’t you tell our audience why that might be?

 

Jodi Daniels  2:46  

Well, for the two years, we’ve been doing this podcast, we tell you all about, you know who we are, and all kinds of cool things. But behind the scenes, we’ve actually also been writing a book. And this is the first podcast that we’re actually announcing that we wrote a book and the bio that we just read is perfect, because the name of our book, Data Reimagined: Building Trust One Bite at a Time. So we’re so excited to have this conversation about truly how companies can reimagine data protection, how they’re using data, and what it means to succeed in today’s world. So welcome to the show.

 

Leila Golchehreh  3:24  

Thank you so much, Justin. Jodi, what an introduction and congrats on the new book. This sounds very exciting, although Hey, I don’t know. I mean, we’re also reimagining privacy. So we should, we should

 

Jodi Daniels  3:34  

talk about that. There could be a sequel.

 

Leila Golchehreh  3:38  

Like it, I like it.

 

Justin Daniels  3:40  

already. I’m already writing my sequel, which is called how my marriage survived writing a book with my wife as a co author.

 

Jodi Daniels  3:50  

Yes, yes, yes, I suppose. Well, please, we always love to understand we did give some background as to, you know, where you where you started and how you got here. But please, share a little bit more. How did your career evolved to now a tech founder? Sure.

 

Leila Golchehreh  4:07  

Well, thanks for thanks for the question, guys. And really excited to be here. I enjoy your podcasts. And I always find it very funny. And so it’s fun to be on with you. So So I think As Justin mentioned, me, I’ve been working in this space for for over 15 years now. And a lot of what I’ve done has been to really build out privacy and data governance programs for companies really ranging of all sizes. I was in private practice for some time where I was helping a lot of SMEs and then I kind of wanted to get into the big leagues. So I joined workday to see how a company with a very reputable privacy program carried out all of their different privacy and data protection initiatives. And it was an awesome experience. You know, I then went to adaptive insights where I was the Data Protection Officer, and that’s when I really started to Feel how painful it was to not have good technology for data mapping and inventory. I was brought in as the data protection officer to get them ready for the GDPR. I had just about four and a half months to get a 15 year old company really ready for the GDPR. They had global operations. And so it was back at that time when we were running on the parallel timeline. And both trying to take the company public, I think something you will appreciate, Justin, given your background, alongside Jodi, what you will appreciate the GDPR clock ticking. So I was really desperate to find good tooling. And it was back in 2018, when I demoed every privacy tech solution that I could get my hands on. So if you said you did privacy tech, in 2018, I surely did a demonstration of your product. And what I found was a lot of automated workflow solutions, not true automation that was embedded into the way our engineering teams were operating. I did find though, you know, a couple of database sort of scanning tools, but it was really intrusive for me. And certainly for our customers, we’d have to notify them of new sub processors, it was just some kind of headache that I didn’t want to take on. And it wasn’t exactly the type of tooling that I needed. So after demoing every tool on the market, I ended up just kind of doing this the manual or the hard way. But largely because I didn’t find what I needed in these other tools. And that was really when I realized what a desperate problem this was, especially when you’re on a very tight timeline, to when to build a data map and inventory. And when something just didn’t sit right with me, which was engineers have access to information and code they are writing code code makes decisions about how data process is processed. So to not have visibility as a lawyer, it just didn’t make sense to me. I really wanted to understand what was happening in code. Why couldn’t there be a translation layer between engineering and the legal team are the privacy team that was always a disconnect for me. So we are really excited at Relyance AI to be building what we believe is the right solution for for data mapping and inventory and really running a holistic global data privacy and protection program at any technology organization.

 

Jodi Daniels  7:27  

Well, I love what you all are doing. And I see it all the time. And interesting. I’ve been talking to some companies who are at that four and a half mark, four and a half month mark rather to comply with the upcoming CCPA changes. And they’re how are we going to do this. And so we’re right back to where people were a couple years ago, we obviously have not learned. But

 

Justin Daniels  7:49  

actually, Leila, I wanted to ask you one follow up about your career. So on our podcast, we’ve been fortunate enough to have several attorneys as either co founders and CO CEOs. And from my perspective, as a practicing lawyer, I think that speaks highly to what illegal background can bring. And I just love if you could share with building the privacy tech, how your legal background has been helpful in evolving your business and your expertise?

 

Leila Golchehreh  8:18  

Absolutely. Well, I think that, you know, privacy is this interesting area, Justin, where it’s sort of the square peg in a round hole. I know, you know this very well, Jodi or her, it kind of doesn’t fit perfectly within legal, it doesn’t fit perfectly with engineering or even security. It’s almost its own animal, if you will. And you know, as far as how legal is really helped to become a co founder of a privacy technology startup. And I think also one of the reasons that we’ve been very fortunate to secure some incredible customers very early on, we’re only two and a half years old. And we’re already working with companies like Patreon, New Relic Zoom is another logo, where we’ve just signed them as a customer, we’re really excited to be supporting them. But why have we been successful and our go to market strategy? And I think it’s because we understand the pain. We also understand the workflows, right? And so it’s not only about sort of what are the legal requirements, but how do you operationalize privacy? And I think, you know, this sounds like a lot of what the work that you do, Jodi is, you know, kind of on the ground in the weeds, working with engineers and understanding. Here’s what the law says, Here’s what we can practically do from an engineering and implementation standpoint and bringing that all together. So I don’t think it’s just being a lawyer. I think it’s also having worked very closely with engineers over, you know, over a pretty long period of time building what are really real solutions to some complex privacy challenges.

 

Jodi Daniels  9:54  

So on that note, what are the privacy challenges that you’re seeing companies face Today? Yeah, well,

 

Leila Golchehreh  10:02  

I think, you know, it’s the foundational question of understanding what data an organization has, who’s accessing that information and what’s being done to it. And, you know, beyond the fact that it’s like playing whack a mole, keeping up with all the different privacy, legal requirements, it’s really getting that foundational understanding and having that be maintained and always alive. Because that is sort of the key, in our view, to unlocking you know, no matter how the law changes, or no matter which portion of your privacy program that you are trying to address, if you have the foundational piece really nailed, and you can understand and keep that maintained. That’s the key to unlocking every other privacy workflow. Whether it’s D SARS, you can’t fulfill a data subject request, unless you first know where the data subjects data is, or data protection assessments, you know, what data are we actually talking about here? And then also maintaining your data protection assessment. So if you notice that there’s a new data flow or something that’s moving or shifting or changing, how do you go back and revisit that? How do you even know? So historically, it’s been Oh, because the engineer mentioned it, or ICML found out on a conversation accidentally, which was really not the way we want to be doing privacy in 2022. Right, we want to have a, an always live in clear picture that gives us that same level, or better observability and visibility into how engineering teams are operating. And I think that lack of observability, you know, I would say really, until Relyance has been a tremendous challenge. And most of the solutions, even if you do, for example, a database scan, you’re really looking at that point in time, you know, instead of actually tracking data flows in real time. And that’s really the difference in anything. The importance of embedding in what’s called shift left, you know, really embedding and understanding engineering workflows before things get pushed and go live into production, because that’s not privacy by design. That’s a little bit too late.

 

Jodi Daniels  12:06  

I think that makes a lot of sense. And even getting the engineering team to be on board with this. And some companies might even be a privacy challenge. But they are definitely essential people and groups and functions to make this whole privacy and security thing actually work.

 

Leila Golchehreh  12:24  

Absolutely couldn’t agree more.

 

Justin Daniels  12:27  

I want my T shirt that says shift left. I’m hearing that all the time now in the privacy space about shifting left to make privacy part of the actual development.

 

Jodi Daniels  12:35  

I hear you know how to trademark things.

 

Justin Daniels  12:41  

So, speaking of shifting left, you know, there are many privacy tools that say they can do automation. Can you share a little bit more about Relyance’s approach to privacy automation?

 

Leila Golchehreh  12:54  

Sure, absolutely. Justin. So, so yes, there are a lot that do automation. And, you know, I think that one of the challenges is what are you automating? And how are you automating? And does this actually reflect real workflows, and I think one of the fundamental premises that we’ve adopted is, we cannot push against the way the engineering machine is already operating. And so a lot of the solutions that do quote unquote, automation have been historically automated workflow solutions. So you’re still kind of creating friction between the engineering organization and the privacy organization, where you’re asking engineering teams or other members of the organization to complete a form about effectively what they’re doing with data. So that’s one issue. Another issue is, you know, if you’re only doing the automation of a database scan, for example, that data at a point in time of that scan, as opposed to actually taking it back several levels, and just starting at that fundamental area, where decisions about how data is processed is made, which is ENCODE. So our approach to automation? Well, it’s multi fold, but I will just talk generally about embedding within the way engineering is already operating, to really do a scan of code using static code analysis. In order to understand you before data gets pushed, lived into production before code is pushed, and then data processed, where we are understanding each and every time a new, any kind of code is pushed into prod. We’re automating the understanding of the data map and inventory and pushing that back to Relyance and maintaining that and so it’s always alive. So if there’s any shift if there’s a new line of code, processing new data, we’ll be able to automatically tell you that this is happening. And the technology is so powerful and that we’ve taken that approach through Understanding code that we’ve already, even as a two and a half year old company, helped multiple customers of ours detect and prevent security incidents where I can give you one example of faulty line of code was about to send credit card information out to snowflake, which is a, you know, it’s a, a data lake. And they had no idea about it, it was just a mistake, it was just an accident, right? Just like, you know, we can make typos and a legal brief engineers can accidentally process data in a way that we were not expecting. And so with Relyance, what we’ve done is because we know when code is changing, we’re able to automatically inform our customers when there’s a data flow, that’s not being expected. So that brings me into sort of the second piece of our automation, which is, we also do NLP on contracts and policies. And this is something that really sets Relyance on part. And one of the reasons that we’re so excited about the technology here is, you know, from my perspective, and as I was demoing, demoing these tools back in 2018, I frequently would, you know, see that, okay, great, you do some portion of the data map. But then so what this is such an important artifact, and yet, we’re not comparing it against some kind of requirements here. So what I want to see is not necessarily every corner of the data map, no one has bandwidth for that. But rather, what I really want to understand is, is there a delta between what I expect to be happening with data and what’s actually happening. And so that’s where Relyance is on automation, and we call it auto magic, you know, really comes out where we are understanding what’s in your contracts, understanding what’s in your policies, comparing that with code and other data flows happening across your organization. And if and when there’s a disconnect, we inform our customers.

 

Justin Daniels  16:54  

Yeah, I have to ask, Leila, and Jodi is gonna get mad when I asked that. But I want to know when you’re going to deploy this to the blockchain industry that has smart contracts and all matters of automating code, that what your product does, does is directly designed to deal with. I think you probably see this as engineers, regardless of what industry is privacy tech blockchain, they can get a little lazy about what code they use, because its path of least resistance, and they don’t think about these unintended consequences. And your software is specifically designed to identify these deltas so that they just don’t go into production and cause data to go where it shouldn’t, or things to get executed that create security risk.

 

Leila Golchehreh  17:42  

Yeah. Well, as a matter of fact that we have multiple customers in the blockchain and cryptocurrency sectors. They’re not public. But yeah, so we’re, we’re on it, Justin. So appreciate that. And you’re 100%, right. I mean, this has been a very interesting industry for us. And it is a key focus area of what we’re building.

 

Jodi Daniels  18:04  

You just made his day. And so I want to highlight that one of the things we talked about was code. However, the tool, you know, companies have more than just obviously, the engineering code. They have all kinds of other departments. They could have marketing, and HR and finance and employee data all over the place. Can you talk a little bit about how the tooling can help in those areas as well?

 

Leila Golchehreh  18:28  

Excellent question, Jodi. So there are two additional integrations that we offer, and one is specific to vendor API’s. So that’s when a company’s acting as a data controller. So all the use cases, Jody, that you just mentioned, marketing, IT operations, sales, employee data, or job candidate data. So with respect to tracking data flows there, we still say privacy, it’s in the code. But the way that we do this is by individual vendor integrations. And again, even with respect to our underlying source code scan, we can detect when third parties are accessing any of your underlying data that’s processed by your SaaS applications or any kind of applications that you have as your underlying business. But let’s say you have something that’s not necessarily can connected to your underlying products. That’s exactly when we do those vendor API integrations, where our machine learning models are pre trained on 1000s of vendor API’s. And so if you want to effectively just track how information is flowing from one place to another, we will look at that. And because of the NLP that I mentioned earlier, we also have a very strong understanding of data processing at some of the top vendors and companies whether it’s Salesforce or greenhouse, you know, or other tools like Workday, where there is a you know, there’s clear data processing and taking place that a company we’re also going to be able to track through contract.

 

Jodi Daniels  19:53  

So we’ve talked about this before, where you’re talking to a consultant You’re talking to an attorney. And lots of people, when they hear AI, they get kind of scared, it’s going to take over their job, and there’s not going to be anything left for them to do because the tool is done at all. And we know that that’s not necessarily the case. So can you share about how AI and especially your tool is actually helping someone do their job better?

 

Leila Golchehreh  20:21  

Yeah, absolutely. Well, there are jobs that, you know, we definitely want lawyers and consultants that are, you know, we have, there’s so much strategic thinking around building a privacy program where this is where I believe we’re actually creating more opportunities. On the other hand, the data mapping and inventory exercise is a really painful task. And we’re not doing it right. Today, we just are, no matter how diligent we are, it is very, very difficult to get an accurate picture when data is moving and flowing and shifting every second of every day, no human can stay on top of that. So there are places where through the use of machine learning, I believe this is actually much better for for privacy and trust building and and for companies. And it will enable and empower consultants and lawyers who are strategic thinkers to focus on where are the risks. So I had given that example earlier Jodi of the case in which, you know, we’ve detected and prevented security breaches for some of our customer base. Now, when we detect that it’s up to the lawyer or the consultant, or even the see. So we’ve, we’ve also found a lot of CISOs, our customers as well, to kind of take, take actions and make decisions around, what will they do next. So what we have is a module focused on intelligent Insights, where we will showcase and surface information where the lawyer or the security professional or the consultant needs to spend their time kind of, you know, looking at evaluating and crafting the global privacy program and the strategy. So you know, with respect to the automation of the data mapping inventory, I think this is going to help with the work that, you know, we do from a legal and consulting perspective, and actually enable and empower lawyers to kind of take on more interesting work in the area of privacy. And I can tell you, from my personal experience having been avoided in the hallway by multiple engineers, when trying to do the data mapping projects, that actually this is the tool that I always wished I had, and just could never find

 

Jodi Daniels  22:39  

any, hopefully won’t be avoided anyway. Yeah.

 

Leila Golchehreh  22:43  

Well, now they like it, because they are like, Oh, you’re taking away the work. And you’re embedding within the way we operate. This is awesome. So that’s been really rewarding about our technology as well.

 

Justin Daniels  22:55  

So Leila, kind of segwaying into opportunities for lawyers to be strategic thinkers, as well, as consultants. For a company that’s starting their privacy program. What advice would you give them?

 

Leila Golchehreh  23:10  

That question, Justin, so I think, you know, I would take it back to some of the things that we were chatting about earlier, that you need to have a solid foundation and understanding in real time of how information is flowing with the development of laws across the world. And I think especially if you have global operations, which every company should aspire to have, at some point, right, is international customers. It is almost a Herculean task to stay on top of not only the developments, but also the data flows, moving and shifting and changing an organization. So my advice and you know, obviously, I would want everyone to buy Relyance AI, and I use this as the tool that they have for their organization. But whether or not you by Relyance, they I think the point is, you have to understand data at your organization that you represent. It’s absolutely foundational, it’s fundamental to building any if you can’t, you know, imagine building a house without a foundation, you really cannot set up walls, you can’t put on a roof, you have to start somewhere. And the right place to start is just understanding what data does the company have? How is that data flowing within the company and also outside? And what’s being done to that data for one purpose, and no matter which law applies, whether it’s GDPR or lgpd, or you name your acronym? And are the alphabet soup in which privacy lawyers are not living? You know, you have to get an answer to these fundamental questions. First.

 

Jodi Daniels  24:49  

I use that exact analogy yesterday in a conversation about a house and I was saying, you know, a lot of people when they build their house, they have a vision of what it’s going to look like and they’re decorating it and they’re living there. You can’t get there if you didn’t actually build it. And you have to start at the foundation and you build up. It’s the same where you might have this grand vision of what your privacy programs going to look like. You have to start at one step at a time and the very first step data.

 

Justin Daniels  25:13  

Let’s see now, what Leila said is inspired me because you know, Leila, we have KYC, which is know your customer. Now, I’m thinking we should combine the t shirt to say shift left KY D for know your data.

 

Jodi Daniels  25:27  

Now your data, you know your data all day long as well. I have a lot of a lot of saying yes, well,

 

Justin Daniels  25:33  

as do I, but none of them are listened to by my family.

 

Jodi Daniels  25:38  

gonna listen to you. So I

 

Leila Golchehreh  25:40  

have a parallel career, Jodi and marketing.

 

Jodi Daniels  25:44  

Maybe Maybe I have a funny story for why I did not go into marketing, actually. But we’ll save that for the cocktail hour or so in the spirit of all these different alphabet soup of privacy laws that we’re kind of making fun of, we have a variety of new ones that may or may not come on the horizon. So when you’re a little crystal ball, what do you think? Where do you see privacy going in the next several years, whether that’s laws or even just how companies start adopting privacy in the organization or tools,

 

Justin Daniels  26:15  

and remember, her crystal ball has AI in it?

 

Jodi Daniels  26:19  

It’s an extra enhanced crystal ball,

 

Justin Daniels  26:21  

right? We take what you say more seriously, because we know it’s enhanced with AI. So let’s say you, that’s it, I

 

Leila Golchehreh  26:30  

wish I had a crystal ball that was enhanced with AI. That would be amazing. So so the direction of privacy in the future. So I think, you know, we have already seen the domino effect of of laws and regulations popping up not just across the US, but also really the world. I think it’s been really inspiring. I am a person who really deeply cares about privacy, I believe it is a fundamental human right. Also, you know, this might be controversial, but a constitutional right. And I think that what we have seen is more awareness. And, you know, I’ve had this kind of debate previously around, you know, who’s done more for privacy? Has it been the GDPR, or Apple as a company? Because Apple made privacy? Cool. And, you know, there’s, that’s another controversial topic, as you know, have they have they been helping the consumers to help their company or brand, but I believe that they really popularized it in a way that has been really unique and really exciting. And I think that the future is privacy forward. I think what we’ve seen with respect, in particular to some of the things that have happened in the US over the past couple of months and years, is that companies are going beyond or will be going beyond just kind of embedding privacy and to a URL at the bottom of a webpage, that we’re looking at a future that needs to be not just about privacy, because it’s a lot about privacy, because it’s about trust. And because it’s actually very good for your business, because it really matters. I also really believe that the privacy function in general should be reporting into the CEO directly, because it has become that much of an important topic. I think, you know, beyond just sort of the the shift, because of the the regulations and requirements that have been built. Companies can use this as a competitive advantage in the very way that Apple has done, we can use this as an opportunity to build trust with people around how their information is processed. So beyond the the privacy statement, I can see companies, especially in the b2c space really focus on building privacy centers, and making this, you know, a top agenda item as as companies are really building for customers in the b2b space or their consumers in the b2c space.

 

Jodi Daniels  28:58  

Well, we couldn’t agree more. Do you never agree with me? Well,

 

Justin Daniels  29:05  

maybe in a, in a parallel universe that might happen, but not in this one often. So we would like to ask you, what is your best personal privacy tip you’d offer to friends at a cocktail party or just hanging out on a podcast? That’s a good one, ah, check your location

 

Leila Golchehreh  29:27  

settings on your phone, I guess. You know, I mean, there are all kinds of apps that are requesting location data. So just make sure that it’s one of the more sensitive and maybe your microphone acts as well throw that into interesting applications request access to the mic. And so I think that these granular permissions that you know, mobile providers are, you know, kind of rather mobile providers, hardware manufacturers that are apple that that are building, you know, products for consumers. Um, even even the Android devices have more granular access controls and permissions. So check that. Because you never know where you’re sharing your information.

 

Justin Daniels  30:09  

You know, it’s interesting, you say that I went to dinner with two of my longtime friends who have kids who are now driving. So they have an app that lets them know not only the GPS location of their kids through their phone, but they showed me with pride. This is where my kit my kid went, This is how fast they were driving. And then, of course, I said, How do you feel about the fact that that’s getting shared? And where that might be going with the app? Have you looked into that? And they kind of looked at me sheepishly and said, hadn’t thought about that. So I find that interesting, in light of what you’re saying about people just do things and privacy is just not, it’s an afterthought, if it’s get thought of it at all?

 

Leila Golchehreh  30:48  

Yeah, it’s a really good question. I think that, you know, some of these topics are becoming increasingly relevant. So and also do their kids know, how they let their kids now, I wonder about that as well. But But no, you’re absolutely right, you know, understanding where the information is going. And not just immediately to the company that you’re sharing it with, but who are their processors? And who are their sub processors? And how far down the chain does this data sharing actually go? And there was something that we don’t think about, and, you know, it’s, it’s something that we should be taking into account when we’re making decisions about what data we we share with companies processing.

 

Jodi Daniels  31:32  

So when you’re not building a Privacy software company, what do you like to do for fun? Ah,

 

Leila Golchehreh  31:38  

well, we used to be my better half and I just avid travelers. You know, we were traveling a lot before before COVID had some travel, I would say, Jodi, that’s really one of our favorite things to do. It’s going back now, so that’s good. You know, we may go check out Portugal that’s on the agenda. Were my better half is from Brazil. And so he knows how to speak Portuguese very well, in follow up on vocal Portuguese. I’m vain. I’m learning a little bit of Portuguese myself now. But yeah, just getting back to travel I think is you know, one of the joie de vivre, you know, one of the joys of life and I’m really looking forward to things just becoming more normalized and getting back to that How about you both love to hear what you guys do for fun to

 

Justin Daniels  32:25  

do you do for fun?

 

Jodi Daniels  32:26  

What do I do for fun? Um, I take care of your kids and I work and when I get a chance I we’d like the outdoors. My bike my peloton and I are good friends and I like to eat healthy treats. In any

 

Leila Golchehreh  32:41  

What do you bake healthy trades What are you big Jodi?

 

Jodi Daniels  32:45  

So I love chocolate chip muffins chalk, I have some chocolate chips, the chocolate chip granola bars, chocolate chip muffins. Chocolate bars, I make a really good chocolate cupcake that has some sneaky things in it that are good for you. I make some chocolate cupcakes that aren’t as bad for you. I went and go with good. Not bad for you. And these are my favorite food. Indeed. Did you prefer What do I like to

 

Leila Golchehreh  33:11  

do? There are walnuts as long as they’re walnuts in it too.

 

Jodi Daniels  33:14  

I know all night fan. My kids are like the walnuts don’t need to go in here. I know what

 

Justin Daniels  33:19  

Oh, as for me, given what you know Jodi likes to do for fun. Let’s see i i love to roadbike mountain bike ski paddleboard hike. But I’m passionate about playing squash. So I’m all about exercise outdoors that I can partake in Jodi’s wonderous sweets without too much damage.

 

Jodi Daniels  33:44  

Well, we there really enjoyed our conversation with you today. If people are interested, where should they go to learn more

 

Leila Golchehreh  33:52  

things to know. And likewise, thanks so much for having me. It’s been a lot of fun. So you can go to Relyance, that’s relyance.ai. To learn more, and book a demonstration of

 

Jodi Daniels  34:05  

our product. Awesome. We’ll we’ll be sure to include that in the show notes and it’ll be on the site as well. So thank you again, we really had a lovely conversation.

 

Leila Golchehreh  34:14  

Likewise. Thanks, Jodi and Justin as a lot of

 

Outro  34:23  

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