Andrea Amico

Andrea Amico is the Founder of Privacy4Cars. It is the first company focused on solving the growing data privacy and security issues posed by vehicles. Through its unique platform, Privacy4Cars is increasingly convincing auto finance fleets and dealerships to provide sensible protection for consumers. Privacy4Cars also offers free help to consumers who want their data deleted and privacy respected by asserting their legal rights.

Andrea is also an Adjunct Professor of Engineering Ethics at Kennesaw State University. Previously, he was the President of Jack Cooper Logistics and the Managing Director of Strategic Initiatives and Analysis at NBC Universal.

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Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

  • Andrea Amico explains how he became interested in privacy for car owners
  • How much data do cars contain?
  • Andrea describes the services that Privacy4Cars offers
  • Potential laws to protect the data your car collects
  • Best practices for limiting the data you share with your vehicle
  • Where does your information end up after it’s collected?
  • Tips for regaining control of your data
  • Ways car designs could change to improve privacy and security

In this episode…

You probably know a lot about your car. But do you realize how much your car knows about you?

Think about it. You let it know your location every time you open the navigation app. It knows all your friends' contact information when you sync your contacts. It hears all your conversations with the Bluetooth functions and can gather text messages, social media interactions, browser histories, calendar entries, and more. Once you realize the frightening amount of information your car holds on the other side of the steering wheel, you’re likely thinking, “How do I make sure my information stays secure and private?”

In this episode of She Said Privacy/He Said Security, Jodi and Justin Daniels sit down with Andrea Amico, Founder of Privacy4Cars, to discuss how you can regain control of your car’s data collection. Andrea talks about the types of data your car collects, protecting your privacy, and how Privacy4Cars services can help.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by Red Clover Advisors.

Red Clover Advisors uses data privacy to transform the way that companies do business together and create a future where there is greater trust between companies and consumers.

Founded by Jodi Daniels, Red Clover Advisors helps their clients comply with data privacy laws and establish customer trust so that they can grow and nurture integrity. They work with companies in a variety of fields, including technology, SaaS, ecommerce, media agencies, professional services, and financial services.

You can get a copy of their free guide, “Privacy Resource Pack,” through this link.

You can also learn more about Red Clover Advisors by visiting their website or sending an email to info@redcloveradvisors.com.

Episode Transcript

Intro  0:01

Welcome to the She Said Privacy/He Said Security Podcast. Like any good marriage we will debate, evaluate, and sometimes quarrel about how privacy and security impact business in the 21st century.

Jodi Daniels  0:21  

Hi, Jodi Daniels here. I'm the Founder and CEO of Red Clover Advisors, a certified women's privacy consultancy. I'm a privacy consultant and certified informational privacy professional and provide practical privacy advice to overwhelmed companies.

Justin Daniels  0:37  

Hello, Justin Daniels here I am a technology attorney who is passionate about helping companies solve complex cyber and privacy challenges during the lifecycle of their business. I am the cyber quarterback helping clients design and implement cyber plans as well as help them manage and recover from data breaches.

Jodi Daniels  0:57  

And this episode is brought to you by i like it more than journal these days. How fascinating Red Clover Advisors, we help companies to comply with private data privacy laws and establish customer trust so that they can grow and nurture integrity. We work with companies in a variety of fields including technology, SaaS, ecommerce, media agencies, and professional and financial services. In short, we use data privacy to transform the way companies do business. Together, we're creating a future where there's greater trust between companies and consumers. To learn more, visit redcloveradvisors.com. So today is going to be super fun. We're gonna combine what I used to watch as a kid like the Jetsons with your favorite topic of autonomous vehicles, because today, we have a very special guest, we have Andrea Amico, who is the Founder of Privacy4Cars. The first company focused on solving the growing data privacy and security issues posed by vehicles. Through its unique platform. Privacy4Cars is increasingly convincing auto finance fleets and dealerships to put in place sensible protection for consumers. Privacy4Cars also offers free help to consumers who want to get their data deleted and privacy respected by asserting their legal rights. Welcome to the show.

Andrea Amico  2:28  

Thank you, Jodi. And thank you, Justin, I'm excited to be here.

Jodi Daniels  2:32  

Wow, would you like to kick us off,

Justin Daniels  2:34  

I would first like to know what you guys think about the changing leaves, at least where we live, the leafs are trying finally changing to a nice golden brown,

Jodi Daniels  2:44  

why might need some automated car help, because I'm so focused on the beautiful colors, they might be slightly distracted while driving my car. So I need all of my bells and whistles actually in my car are going to talk about to help keep me safe. So I can enjoy all the beautiful orange, yellow and red leaves.

Justin Daniels  3:00  

So you already want a new car that has semi autonomous smooth. Okay, me ready?

Jodi Daniels  3:07  

All right, well, are you going to really get started now?

Justin Daniels  3:11  

Let's get started. Andrea, welcome to the fun. Why don't we start? How did your career evolve to your current position? Hanging out with us and talking about privacy and automobiles?

Andrea Amico  3:29  

Well, that’s really the pinnacle of my career to be able to hang out with you guys, this is, you know, the fact that you make it fun, and that you talk about privacy and security is absolutely awesome. So I'm super elated to be here, about me. I've been in the automotive industry for more than a decade. One of the companies I used to run was actually a used car inspection company. And that's how the I caught the bug of what data is left in cars, because we're doing audits. And we started to realize years ago that hold on a second people leave their home address and garage, their codes in cars have been resolved. Is that a good idea? And when we asked people in the industry, nobody had a clue meaning we all had the admin anecdotes of people saying yeah, I know this, this in a car for sale, or all of us had the experience of renting a car, there's 10 other phones synced into it. But nobody really had any data to say what data is collected by cars. What's happening with this data? Who has rights to it? How often does it happen? Is it the same if it's on rent, or if it's a fleet or if it's a lease, or if your vehicle has been repossessed? Or its total loss because you got into an accident? So that's how I got started. And you know, there we go. Now we're having fun with privacy for cars.

Jodi Daniels  4:41  

You know, it's so interesting. I actually got my start in privacy when I was working at Cox automotive, which is a conglomerate of everything automotive from they call it cradle to grave, and you're talking about the data that's being left in cars. Well at the auction The type of infer or stuff that was left in cars was fascinating. And made literally when cars would get turned in, they uncover I mean strollers and all kinds of personal information wallets. And just like you had shared home addresses and all types of information, it's really, really interesting. Which kind of lens us help educate, because I don't think everyone appreciates and realizes how much data are created from cars today. So help us understand a little bit, what kind of data cars are creating, how much data are in these cars? And where do you think it's gonna go in the next couple years?

Andrea Amico  5:41  

Well, I can definitely answer the last part first, because we do audits, every year, the audits get worse, meaning a higher percentage of vehicles are resold containing personal information. And the average amount of personal information is growing over time, because of two reasons. One, technology is evolving in cars at a very fast pace. So all these new sensors capture extra data. But also, people use more those systems. sure that if you were one of those people who had a GPS and a navigation system, the first ones came out, I think, 23 years ago, back then they were not real pretty. Nowadays, you know, they are basically a glorified iPad, and they're really fun to interact with. And they give you all sorts of information, people use them. And as a consequence, they leave a lot of information behind Bluetooth is also 20 years old, people don't realize that's really the problem data in cars started back then. Because when you sync your phone, most people don't realize that actually the way systems have been designed. He said, your phone will dump data into the car, and then the car reads it from the car, not from your phone. And so there's always a copy of what's in your phone that is resident in the car. And so, you know, the things that I think people probably intuitively think about is okay, maybe there's a copy of my contacts. But there's a lot more. You can find, you know, in all vehicles, it was very common to have the contacts, a copy of the text messages, like the actual text of the text messages. Of course, your call logs, all sorts of identifiers that makes it easy to know, who was driving this car was adjusted, you know, because now I have your unique identifier. Nowadays, you have, you know, track records of your Twitter and Facebook account, they may be in your car, your browser history may be in your car, your calendar entries may be in your car, if you've taken photos with your phone, there's a track record in your car that too. So again, all sorts of things that people really don't realize. And I don't think they're really properly disclosed to consumers, which is part of the reason why we exist.

Justin Daniels  7:50  

It sounds to me like we could have a day soon where you have a lawyer subpoenaing records to figure out where the husband was going, if he was hanging out with somebody other than your girlfriend.

Andrea Amico  8:01  

Well, that's already happening. So so fun, fun story, because you're the lawyer here. So there's one special computer in the cars called the electronic data recorder, people will nickname it, you know, the black box, because it's similar to the black box of plays. And that's used for accident reconstruction. So you you know, you get into an accident, the last few seconds before in the last few seconds after the impact. All sorts of data is recorded. It's typically, you know, pretty boring data, meaning it's your acceleration, what year you were in where your seatbelts on the the airbags final time, did it fire all these kinds of things? Well, their data, which is highly technically used for us, actually construction is actually protected by a law called the Driver Privacy Act. That is the only computer that actually has some legal protections. Meaning that the owner has the rights to say no, and you need a warrant to be able to access data. If you you know, to know who you called, how long you were on the phone and what you were texting. That day, they started building the infotainment system. So it's not covered. So you have no legal rights so that you have no legal protections kind of interesting, right?

Jodi Daniels  9:13  

is very interesting. It reminds me of a conversation we were having as a family with our youngest, and she didn't like the idea that the car knew every every place we were going, she didn't like the idea of the tracking that was taking place in a car and the GPS. And so we had an entire conversation of well, who she started asking whose data is it? It's a really fascinating question. Is it the drivers data? Is it the people who sold us the car, the dealer is that the manufacturer and we had to explain all these different people? It's actually a really complex question because you have some data that wants to get back to a manufacturer for recall purposes. dealers want to have that information to be able to contact you and then It's this kind of data that we're talking about actually in the car. It's really very fascinating and very complex answer to which she didn't really like any of our questions, any of our answers. And she felt like it should be her data. So the young generation focus group of one feels like it is her data that she should be able to be in control of.

Andrea Amico  10:19  

How old is she?

Jodi Daniels  10:21  

She is eight.

Andrea Amico  10:22  

She's a bright young lady. More people would think about this. Yeah. So today, fun fact, we track over 500 companies that actually collect, share and sell data that originated in our car. So it's a it's a huge ecosystem. And I bet I'm just scratching the surface. Sure, if we were to do this podcast a year from now, we'll be well, more of over 1000. I mean, we every day, we find new companies that sell in through this data and consumer ship, by and large, no idea.

Justin Daniels  10:52  

So on that note, why don't you tell us a little bit more about Privacy4Cars? What services do you provide?

Andrea Amico  10:59  

So again, we started with a very simple idea, this was really not meant to be a business. You know, I stumbled upon the fact that people left data and I thought that that wasn't right. And so the idea was always how do we help consumers taking care of that. And when we started to talk to companies, the first reaction they had was, Well, the problem is that there's so many different systems. And there are there are literally 10s of 1000s of variations of systems out there that collect data from cars. But so since they said, well, it's too complex, then we don't have to do anything about it. Right? That didn't seem like the right answer. And if there's something that motivates me, is when somebody tells me that something is impossible to do. And so we started to literally boil the ocean tried to figure out what are all the systems out there, how they work, what data they collect, and how to get rid of it. And today we work with, we give, you know, services for free to consumers. As you mentioned in the intro, if you don't know how to delete the data from your cars, download our app, it's free, and you can figure it out by yourself. It's really easy. You can do it in less than a minute. Typically, if you are worried about which companies have access to your data, and you want to tell them to stop when you can place a request with us, and we'll take care of it again free of charge. It's a it's a service, we're beta testing now. But we mainly work with companies. Some of them actually you mentioned, Jodi, at the beginning of the call. They we work with banks, fleets, increasingly dealerships nowadays. And we help them first of all raise awareness of the fact that their vehicles contain data of their customers. And we help them create processes around that on how to secure the data, how to delete it, how to properly dispose of it, and build compliance records around that so that they can prove to consumers that they're doing the right thing.

Jodi Daniels  12:56  

We're so many of the different laws that are currently coming on. Right. We have California, we have Virginia, Colorado, you mentioned that the kind of black box of the vehicle has a particular law, the Driver's Privacy Act, where do you see any of the law or protections coming for this type of data? I mean, you would think some of that might be covered from these other privacy laws, but it might be kind of it might be different. I know, Justin, you've worked with autonomous vehicles, and there's all kinds of other constituents that are part of it. But I'm just kind of curious for for your thoughts on where and how the law might catch up with the type of data that is being collected? And where we're going.

Andrea Amico  13:40  

Yeah, so we have a very unique perspective on this. And the reason is because cars are very special cars are first of all, and IoT, right? So they collect a lot of data. So beyond the usual privacy laws that everybody talks about, that you just mentioned, right? There is actually a ton of laws out there that regulate data security of data stored in electronic devices, cars, right again, those laws were not written for cars, but they surely apply to cars. There's laws about data breaches, there's laws about biometrics, the most litigated along the lender, and now it's Beibei in Illinois, guess what your car's collecting, you know, biometrics. So, reality right now we track over 200 laws that at the state level that apply to vehicles, not none of those laws were specifically written to vehicles. But that's not uncommon, right. There's there's a, for laws to be written about electronic and electronic devices. I think it will be really hard to say that they do not apply to vehicles. And then there's some specific sectors that have special regulations. So for instance, insurance companies, they have a set of laws that are written by the National Association of Insurance Commissioners. Well, there's a data privacy law that applies to 11 states and there's a data secure The deal also applies to 33. States. Most companies have no idea. So, you know, companies themselves, they have no idea how broad the law landscape is. And that's problematic per se. Because if the companies are not thinking about it, you can bet that there are no protections for consumers.

Unknown Speaker  15:23  

You're thinking,

Jodi Daniels  15:24  

No, I'm pressable? Yes, I'm thinking, you're thinking, you're thinking look on. I know, you want to talk talk about autonomous vehicles I set the stage for you're so excited for your autonomous vehicles,

Justin Daniels  15:35  

I think as important as autonomous vehicles are I'm stunned by the amount of data that gets collected. And I guess a follow up question I have is, you talked about earlier with navigation systems. So now, not only does the vehicle come with a navigation system, but you have Apple CarPlay, which means if you want to go to, you know, Google Maps, what have you, you can do that. And I learned the hard way. And I'd love to get your thoughts on this, that even if I put the privacy settings on my phone, so Google Maps wouldn't be on unless I wanted directions, it really didn't matter because the navigation system built into my car had all of the data anyway. So no matter what I do, if I care about privacy, Andrea, what can I do? I feel like there I'm kind of stuck because of that navigation system on my car.

Andrea Amico  16:31  

You are kind of stuck. But you know, let's talk about a couple of things. Right? So first of all, a myth I want to dispel, I talk often to consumers say, Well, I don't use the navigation in the car, I use, just like I heard, right, I use my phone to navigate, well, tough luck, because the sensors are still on, they're still dropping up, right crammed into your system, typically every one to three seconds. And they stored this data for a very long amount of time. So really, everywhere you go in your car is still logged locally in there. And if your car is connected through telematics, is pushed out to a bunch of companies on Apple CarPlay. So interesting factoid that you may like when we reached out to Apple. So we know that when you connect your phone, when you plug your phone into a USB port, a couple of things happen, right? One is that, again, data will migrate from your phone into the car. And so now your car knows stuff about your phone. But if you have Android Auto or Apple CarPlay, the opposite is also true. Right? Your phone will suck out some data that is generated by the car, it will transmit it to Android into Apple. And so the question then becomes, okay, what data do they have? But so we reached out to Apple, for instance, right? Very promising forward company? And the answer we got is, well, you can log into the dashboard of your Apple products, right? You can all do it right. And you can see all the apps and you can query your data, etc. There's one problem, there is no Apple CarPlay on the list, there is no way for consumers to know what Apple has collected from the car through Apple CarPlay. And then the other thing they say is well just check our privacy policy. Other problem, there is no section in the privacy policy says what data is collected by Apple CarPlay. So even with the most privacy for companies like Apple, this is extremely murky. And that's the very best case that you're dealing with everything else is, you know, much more in the darker shades of gray, as you can imagine. Back to your question, what can you do? Well, you have very limited tools, but you can use your local laws to try to ask companies to apply those laws to you in that for isn't what we're offering, you know, for free to consumer. So you can place a data request, and we'll try to figure out what laws apply what systems or what companies are collecting data from your car, and then we'll place a request, we act as your agent, they will say, hey, Jodi, requested that, you know, her data is not be sold. Tell us, you know, tell us if you're selling the data, what categories of data do you have? And by and large, most companies don't even know how to respond, because they've never received a request before. But I think it's very healthy for consumers to be involved in this kind of questions. Because otherwise, how do you get the change that you want to see in society?

Jodi Daniels  19:31  

You shared that there's it sounds like hundreds of companies kind of on the back end collecting using sharing all this information, what would be some of the examples that people would find very surprising.

Andrea Amico  19:44  

So I think most people understand, okay, if I if I punch in a destination in my navigation, probably my manufacturer will know where I am and where I'm going because they need to provide directions, right? It's really hard to do if you don't know where you are, where you're going. So The answer is yes. You know, of course your manufacturer knows. But then typically, we call the manufacturer but they really are assemblers, they put stuff together made by other companies. So there's going to be a company will provide the mapping system, well, they also get to collect for you are we are going, if you get traffic notifications, they may come from a different company altogether. So they also need to know where you are, where you're going, you may get weather notification, you may get, you know, points of interest, you may be able nowadays to you can buy your favorite drink from from your car. And so all these companies, they have the rights to this information, and many of them have the ability to further shell shares, sell it, rocker it. And then there's giant data aggregators, they collect all this data from all the sources packaged nicely and sell it. So you know, I can go and buy probably your car data for just a few dollars.

Justin Daniels  20:57  

So I guess a follow up question to ask you is, in the last two years, Jodi, and I bought new cars, we have His and Her Kia Telluride. And so we went through the process. And, you know, we bought the car from kiya. And from what you're saying is, I don't have a direct contract with the people who design the mapping system. I don't have a direct contract with the people who put so much of the technology in the car, I just have an agreement with Kia that I bought the car. And so basically, what you're saying is there's all these agreements behind the scenes between Kia automotive and all the suppliers of the technology that go in the car as to what they're doing with the data. And as a consumer, it wasn't explained to me in the sales process, I know nothing about it yet. It's going on behind the scenes. And what you're saying is, obviously it's big business is That is my understanding accurate?

Andrea Amico  21:53  

It is very accurate. So we have reviewed the privacy policy of 40 different makes. And by and large, they all say the same thing, right? When you go to the dealership, and you sign on that dotted line, somewhere in that contract says that you are agreeing to the privacy policy, right? This is not any different when you download an app, and you click OK. Right? It's the same thing people don't get to know read what's happening. But that's essentially what's happening. So when you sign the contract, you're agreeing to privacy policy of the manufacturer, what those typically say is that any data collected by the car is they have the rights to it, they have the rights to share it, they have the rights to use it. And typically, you know, explain the uses of the data. As you know, we use this data to improve the safety of your vehicle. We use it for research, we use it to deliver services to us for antibody says or any other purposes, which essentially means, you know, we can do whatever we want with it. And actually most manufacturer have a 20 year retention policy. So if you 20 years from now, if you don't know where you were today, call your manufacturer, because chances are, there's a blue dot somewhere on the map that says exactly where you were.

Jodi Daniels  23:08  

I can imagine you're very popular at a cocktail party,

Andrea Amico  23:12  

the most promising

Jodi Daniels  23:15  

people probably ask you all kinds of information. And if you were there, what would be the couple tips you would give someone to help make sure that they're aware of what's happening and what control they might be able to offer?

Andrea Amico  23:31  

Well, I'm a very pragmatic person, right? So let's start with the simple stuff. The data that is stored in the vehicle, is the easiest place where you can make some significant process because it's stored locally. And also it's a place where you should really think about because if you're selling that vehicle, that data goes to the new owner, and actually anybody in that chain, right as you as you know, many people will touch that car before it's actually finds a new owner. And since there's no pain, there's no face recognition. There's no fingerprinting cars, right, but your factor authentication is the keys. So anybody with the keys has access to all this data. And it's very easy to extract a lot of data. So make sure that if you're selling your car, you're trading a vehicle you're returning a rental, delete your data is just really good hygiene is like washing your hands, you should do it every single time. The the next thing you should do is go in as the companies that actually touch your vehicle to do the same, because I don't think it's fundamentally fair, that consumers are burdened with something that is, quite frankly pretty technical and pretty complex. And is just, you know, difficult. In fact, we know that today in the United States more than four out of five cars I've resold while still containing the personal information the previous owner so you know that clearly tells you people don't do it well, so dealerships don't do it and auto finance companies don't do it. Insurance companies don't do it. And I think it's important for consumers to ask for it. Now, if you buy a used car, you should be concerned about finding people's data to and you may think, why do I care? Well, you know, just the past week, I was two incidents were reported to me of two different vehicles, in which the old owner had tethered their phone to the car, right, because nowadays, cars come with an app, which sounds really a lot of fun, you know, in the middle of the winter, to say, I'm gonna turn on the engine from my room, so that the car warms up five minutes before I get into it. And it's not really cold, that's awesome. But if you sell your car, or if you bought a car used, and somebody still has the hands on the remote, it can locate and unlock it and started again, in this instance, in just one week, and be reported to me, that's problematic. And that's where the slope from this is a privacy problem to security problem to a safety problem that becomes really steep really fast. And so again, I really think that, hopefully, your audience will think about these kinds of things that will serve ASCII, you know, as a business leadership, are you taking care of my data? And I think they should.

Jodi Daniels  26:17  

I'm so curious and not example, because what comes to mind is that it feels like a design flaw with that app and the ability to transfer ownership. I know that you work with a lot of companies, is that one of the topics that they're starting to address in the design process?

Andrea Amico  26:34  

Well, yes or no. So we did a benchmark of so I scored this by pure chance by writing a car, right? So I see my app on the car. And then I realized after the rental, whoa, hold on a second. Okay, so follow the cargos. So, for months, we watched it going, you know, from Connecticut, originally right to do all the way up to Maine over, you know, two and a half months, we contacted the manufacturer, they were actually really kind in that case, to have a workshop with their connected car team. And they didn't follow all of our recommendations, but at least they tried to make some changes, which is encouraging. Direct, our company never responded to us. So you know, I cannot say as many good things in that case. But then we did the same for you know, 1516 manufacturer, I think, and essentially, they all had the same problem. Typically, all it takes to be able to take over a vehicle is to have a little bit of ingenuity, and at most a little bit of social engineering. And it's really not that hard. And that hasn't changed. In fact, when we disclose it was manufacturer never gave us a response back with the screws through the alkali sec, which is a wonderful organization. By the way, if you ever find something, please say something to the advisor. But a couple of manufacturer got back to us and said, Well, if somebody did that there will be a breach of the terms. And I thought well, you know, now the safety the physical safety of consumers is protected by this giant wall called the terms of service and hoping that nobody ill intention will actually breach them. That's that doesn't sound quite right. That's it. I see you snickering on the other side.

Jodi Daniels  28:17  

I'm a little bit louder. snickering he was a quiet snicker

Andrea Amico  28:22  

No, but I mean, this, this is really stuff, right? Because this is this is becoming really common with because most because you come out of factories nowadays have these systems, they have this services. And they are all awesome. Right? They provide great convenience. But to say that privacy and security has been an afterthought, I don't think is quite cutting it. Right. It is. It's just not a really good situation. And I think until consumers start to ask, what are you doing? What are the incentives for companies to actually do something, either there's going to be a mandate because something ugly is going to happen. I hope that's not the case. I hope we can all have a little bit of you know, prevention rather than fixing bad things from happening because they ever happened before. But realize it right now, there's a court in the case of San Francisco, of It's a terrible case of domestic abuse. an OEM is named in the lawsuit, because of this kind of situation because the abuser allegedly used the connection to the car to physically harm the his ex wife. And I think we just need to be really be thoughtful about this kind of things.

Justin Daniels  29:38  

This is great because you've hit on a theme of I think our entire show. When you say everyone likes the convenience and privacy and security don't even rise to the level of an afterthought, because I'm listening to what you're saying about the car situation. How is that any different from these hospital that's being sued because they're ransomware event? The plaintiff is asserting led to the fact that someone had to be transported to another hospital, where they passed away in route. Because the hospital had been ransomware. And so now you're into a very life threatening situation similar to what you're saying. And yet, I guess, Andre, I'm asking you just taking what you see in the auto industry. What are your thoughts around why consumers are just so seemingly unaware or not thinking about how privacy and security from their Apple to their car, to their Siri, Alexa, it just isn't really registering?

Andrea Amico  30:39  

Okay? I don't have really a say I can, anecdotally, most people do not think of their car as if they do with their cell phone. Right? I have a special drawer in my house where I have all my old laptops, in all my old devices, you know, smartphones, because even though in theory, I could delete the data, I just don't trust it. And I'd rather you know, I'd rather keep them there or physically destroy them didn't do anything. None of us has the luxury of having a special garage where we keep our old cars from. It's just not real guys, you know, cars are just too valuable. You can't do that. Right. And so, but at the same token, you know, if you go to Best Buy or February, the returning retailer, and you bring back your laptop, or you have it remanufactured, they have decided years ago, that they're going to be cleaning up the device before when they put it back in commerce, probably because they didn't used to do so. And then when stuff got back into commerce, bad things happen, right? Same thing with the phones, if you bring your quarterback your phone back to Verizon, at&t, whoever you use, either store them either delete the data, or we'll tell you how to do it. Why we don't do this for cars, it just baffles me, because it's the same thing. In fact, cars have more sensors than the average smartphone nowadays.

Jodi Daniels  32:05  

How many sensors are up in a car these days

Andrea Amico  32:08  

are plenty. I mean, essentially, in a phone, you have, you know, gari scopes in a GPS unit. And you know, you have cameras and light sensors, etc, all of this stuff you have in cars, plus a bunch of other things, right. And they also tend to be a lot more precise, because while your car wouldn't run as efficiently, or we'll be able to deliver these advanced features that you have in cars nowadays, right. And so cars have AdWord cameras in inward, but inward cameras, people have no idea that cars have a world cameras, that's shocking to me, and realize that they're designed to be hidden behind the dashboard. So there's no pinhole like you can and there's no red light flashing say, Hey, I'm recording you, right? So people drive and they have no idea that anything from their, where their eyes are looking to the you know, what are their what their face has been recognized? Nowadays, the leading manufacturer of these systems have acquired two companies that specialize in emotion detection. In other words, the way where this is going is that manufacturers want to figure out, are you hungry, because I know what your favorite Facebook, you know, fast food place is and I can recommend to put it on the route. Now, this creates a host of other problems because you get into an accident in the AI of the car determine you were angry. Maybe you were just a minority in the AI didn't work quite as well as we know that there's some systematic bias issues in all the systems. What's going to happen, then? I think that's a you know, there's a question. I really don't want to see what the answer really is. But probably we're going to have to subpoena and put understand OEMs to say, tell me what your AI does again, before we send somebody to jail.

Justin Daniels  33:56  

So when you're busy, when you're not busy navigating privacy and connected cars, what do you like to do for fun? Maybe you like to race antique carts.

Andrea Amico  34:08  

I should pick up on the antique car, so there wouldn't be any system but then where will be the fun here. Now, you know, I have two little girls and you guys were talking about the leafs turning and just this past weekend we took a very long drive and we went up in the mountains and we will fishing and spending time with my girls is the best time outside of work that I can possibly spend. And if there are any parents on the audience, I'm sure that they feel exactly the same way. Here and it was very amusing. And great parenting tip. I taught my daughter when she was eight. So this is what two years ago how to hack into mom's car to extract our text messages or text messages. I think it's awesome parenting. So if anybody wants tips to Send me a lime and contact us through our website. And I'm happy to teach your kids as well.

Jodi Daniels  35:04  

On that theme was going to ask how can people connect with you? And where should they go to learn more as a consumer to make sure that they know how to properly delete their data?

Andrea Amico  35:16  

Thank you. So, yeah, you can go to Privacy4Cars.com spelled privacy number four cars, just one word, dot com. And you can also type in the same word privacy records into your Google Play or iTunes to download your app store to download our app for free. If you go on the website, the top right link right now we are beginning beta testing disturb is to help you figure out who has your data and how to tell them to stop it. So please follow requests, we'd love to be able to help.

Jodi Daniels  35:50  

Wonderful. Well, I know I've learned a lot during our time here together, and I'm sure many others will as well. So thank you so much for sharing, and scaring all of us about what our cars are collecting and doing but empowering everyone here to be able to take control.

Andrea Amico  36:08  

Well, thank you for your I really don't want to scare anybody but I think as with everything and you know I I listened to your podcast, you're doing a great job at educating the public about what are some real risks are there and realities of raising awareness makes all of us safer. So again, thank you for giving me the opportunity to be here today.

Jodi Daniels  36:29  

It's our pleasure.

Justin Daniels  36:30  

Thank you. I enjoyed it. We didn't even talk about autonomous vehicle.

Jodi Daniels  36:34  

I hinted next time. I'll come back. Thank you so much.

Outro  36:42

Thanks for listening to the She Said Privacy/He Said Security Podcast. If you haven't already, be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes and check us out on LinkedIn. See you next time.